4E vs 5E

SKINY

Lifer
The carribean boys run up too 300hp on stock engines I've read, its all down to the tune as sacha will tell you :)
Personally I'd be happy enough to take it to 220/250 on a stock rebuild, mine is showing around 150psi across the board, gummy rings no1 suspect but it won't be opened anytime soon, its getting the tf035 threw clean at it :p :oops:
 
Thread revival!!!!

Still sat on the fence about this lads:rolleyes:....having even more time to mull it over now we're on lockdown.

I was speaking to another Starlet owner the other day, and they said that once my current engine is remapped with the td04 running 1 bar of boost, it will be plenty fast enough for a road car. I don't even plan on going on track. The sole aim was to have quick weekend warrior.
My currently engine was freshly rebuilt around 4k miles ago and runs flawlessly.

Failing that, I buy the forged 5E block I got offered, have it fitted and remapped with td04....apparently the td04 behaves more like a ct9 on a 5E engine?

i can attest that the 5e td04L set up is ideal for street applications..the response and drive-ability is great
as you have a forged 4efte already, i'm not sure you want to spend the extra money on the forge 5e now unless you are getting it at a great deal---this is one of my concerns in your situation...as well, you may want to consider/investigate what condition the forge 5e in before you spend your money.
 

Djaniero

Member +
i can attest that the 5e td04L set up is ideal for street applications..the response and drive-ability is great
as you have a forged 4efte already, i'm not sure you want to spend the extra money on the forge 5e now unless you are getting it at a great deal---this is one of my concerns in your situation...as well, you may want to consider/investigate what condition the forge 5e in before you spend your money.

My current 4e is not forged Gorgan. Its a freshly rebuilt stock engine.
The forged 5e is from off buddy of mine, so I know its been well looked after etc.
At this point, I think I'm going to stick with the 4e for now, and see how far my tuner can push it during the remap.
 

sx_turbo

Lifer
stick to 1.2 bar on stock engine, any more than that and it wont last long, not only that the power increase from 1.2 -1.4 bar isn't that great.

when i had the td04 it was one of the first td04 hybrid options sacha offered, and it only produced marginally more power than the stock td04 in comparison. however the compression drop of the wiseco pistons is massive and with a stock gasket thickness meant i had a compression ration of 7.8:1, stock is 8.5:1 and this difference is quite substantial in terms of turbo spool and power made. The map helps a lot also.

the stock ecu is also really rather good at producing power with a reasonable boost response, using the rrfpr and fcd at 1 bar boost i made 230hp with no tuning, i know this isnt optimal but it does work and quite well.

i then plugged int the APEXI pfc and lost 50hp on its base map which is supposedly "optimised".

anyway i then had a rubbish map installed by 2x different companies and the boost response wasn't great, was fun when it hit boost but i always felt underwhelmed and it wasn't what i was expecting or what i was certainly told to expect. i ended up putting this down to the poor compression ratio mixed with map.

anyway what i'm trying to say is that the stock engine @1.2bar should see boost come in reasonably early, expect 3k ish (with my low compression ratio i was seeing boost 3.5-4k, closer to 4k, on high boost 1.4bar this didn't feel to bad, but low boost i had 1 bar and the car just felt like it was lacking). its not 5e levels of response, but i don't think the cost of the 5e would be worthwhile considering what you are wishing for.
 

Djaniero

Member +
Thanks a lot for the informative response man :cool:.

I know the overseas guys have been doing it for years, but do you think the stock 4e with a good map can withstand 1.2 bar on a Td04?

I currently playing it safe, running 0.7 bar on a WEPR ram kit. However I've got yellow injectors, 3 bar map sensor, mac 3 port boost solenoid and ME221 Standalone to fit and remap.

I'm thinking even the jump in power/torque from 0.7 bar to a remapped 1 bar ....which should be around 220-230bhp will be a nice enough difference?

ps - who mapped your car with the rubbish maps?
 

sx_turbo

Lifer
Thanks a lot for the informative response man :cool:.

I know the overseas guys have been doing it for years, but do you think the stock 4e with a good map can withstand 1.2 bar on a Td04?

I currently playing it safe, running 0.7 bar on a WEPR ram kit. However I've got yellow injectors, 3 bar map sensor, mac 3 port boost solenoid and ME221 Standalone to fit and remap.

I'm thinking even the jump in power/torque from 0.7 bar to a remapped 1 bar ....which should be around 220-230bhp will be a nice enough difference?

ps - who mapped your car with the rubbish maps?

the stock engine will happily take 1.2 bar safely.

i would recommend having 2x boost modes, 1 bar should be your daily thrash, and 1.2 should be when your in a develish mood.

i'm not sure what yellow injectors are but guess they are 380 or 440cc injectors? i cant remember what stock were 280cc rings a bell though (probably well wrong)

i live in essex, i went to redline tuning first who made a right hash of the map, car didn't run or drive well at all. I then went to Abbey Motorsport they improved it, but it wasn't right, there were 2 problems with this, the day i mapped it it was -2 degrees in the booth, i had an oil hose let go on the oil pressure switch (i didn't know this until later when i drove it down the road) which i was disappointed with as they didnt say this until i drove it back to them. i was kind of indifferent about the service.

i intended to go to FC Tuner for the final map and to get it sorted once and for all, but i lost interest and fancied something else which never happened but thats another story.

Atspeed Racing in rayleigh, essex were good, they mapped my original hybrid setup using the safc and sitc, this was genuinely my best ever tune, they done such a good job, especially with the engine popping the gasket on the dyno. It drove so well. unfortunately when i went forged they
didn't know the APEXI software, they would have done it but wanted me to pay them £80 per hour for them to learn the software (on my car) which is by all accounts difficult compared to other software suites and £80 per hour to carry out the final tune on the car (that was 8 years ago). They advised a minimum of 8 hours at the time.
 

Djaniero

Member +
the stock engine will happily take 1.2 bar safely.

i would recommend having 2x boost modes, 1 bar should be your daily thrash, and 1.2 should be when your in a develish mood.

i'm not sure what yellow injectors are but guess they are 380 or 440cc injectors? i cant remember what stock were 280cc rings a bell though (probably well wrong)

i live in essex, i went to redline tuning first who made a right hash of the map, car didn't run or drive well at all. I then went to Abbey Motorsport they improved it, but it wasn't right, there were 2 problems with this, the day i mapped it it was -2 degrees in the booth, i had an oil hose let go on the oil pressure switch (i didn't know this until later when i drove it down the road) which i was disappointed with as they didnt say this until i drove it back to them. i was kind of indifferent about the service.

i intended to go to FC Tuner for the final map and to get it sorted once and for all, but i lost interest and fancied something else which never happened but thats another story.

Atspeed Racing in rayleigh, essex were good, they mapped my original hybrid setup using the safc and sitc, this was genuinely my best ever tune, they done such a good job, especially with the engine popping the gasket on the dyno. It drove so well. unfortunately when i went forged they
didn't know the APEXI software, they would have done it but wanted me to pay them £80 per hour for them to learn the software (on my car) which is by all accounts difficult compared to other software suites and £80 per hour to carry out the final tune on the car (that was 8 years ago). They advised a minimum of 8 hours at the time.

Awesome. I was doing a search around for TD04 users in the UK on stock internals running over a 1 bat and came across this dude:


LIke you said , he had no issue whatsoever after remap and the car ran really strong...although he was running the slightly smaller tf035 @ 1.2 bar. He said as the td04 is slightly bigger, I would probably be able to make 240bhp at 1.1 bar instead?

As my ecu is standalone, I was going to connect my oem hi/lo boost button back up, to run gate pressure on low boost then hi boost as 1.1/1.2 bar.
I may see if i can get my hands on a ebc in the meantime though.

The yellow injectors I have, are RX8 ones. They're rated to 420cc if I remember correctly.

Thats annoying that the 2 tuners you took the car too didn't do a good enough Job. Its always a gamble entrusting others to do work on your car, but when it comes to tuning/mapping its not something most feel comfortable doing themselves.

80 quid an hour for 8 hours, to learn the software is pretty ludacris man :-o

Up here in the North West, many swear by Tuning Developments. Although they remapped my engine builders Glanza, I've come across a number of horror stories, about them.
Luckily, Goldenvtr and a couple of my Honda buddies, recommended a tuner they use with an awesome rep, who does't cost the earth.
He seemed like a really genuine, passionate and down to earth guy when I spoke to him, which speaks volumes these days.

I'll hopefully get her booked in after lock down :)
 

sx_turbo

Lifer
thats a pretty well set up starlet in that vid

yeah the 420cc will be fine. the td04 is slightly bigger than tf035 but the tf035 is a better turbo with slightly better flow, power wise there isnt much difference.

glad you found a tuner, good ones are tricky to find. if i had more balls i'd tune it myself but i always fear my reactions would be to slow or i press the wrong button and cock it up lol.

goldenvtr still about? last i read he went 5e and couldnt decide what timing marks to use.
 

Djaniero

Member +
It sounded like a really healthy running car. I came really close to buying a tf035, but the TD04 I have is in great condition and didnt really want to take the risk of buying a used turbo.

Same here, I wouldn't have the balls to map mine either lol.

Yeah I still speak to goldenvtr now and again. He's doing another conversion at the moment...corolla T sport engine. Better suited for track use from what he said.
 

Djaniero

Member +
@Jay @gorganl2000 and @wickedep . What are your opinions on the limitations of the GT/Glanza gearbox with the added torque produced from the 5e? I know people mostly say you run into issues at around 280-300bhp, but I’m guessing torque is a factor that can damage these gearboxes too.

Thanks
 
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Jay

Admin
Haven't experienced any issues myself (yet) but mine isn't a mad power delivery boot to the box thanks to the turbo.
 

SKINY

Lifer
Hookey runs around the 320 ish hp and he destroys them for fun
Mattys at 370, not sure if he has the fancy gearset In yet but it's only a matter of time before something goes if standard still I'd say
 

Djaniero

Member +
Thanks lads. I missed out on a forged 5e bottom end the other day, and I got speaking to another engine builder who said I'm best off forging my 4E or I'll be going through gearboxes with a well sorted 5E due to the low down torque.

@Jay what kind of power are you running?

@Kev-ep91 what turbo setup are you running with your 5e? Are yo constantly at 310 or is that just high boost?
 

Jay

Admin
1.8 bar on a k26, so whatever that is. Hasn't seen a dyno for a decade lol.

K26 has a steadier, progressive power band than the td04's and 05's I've experienced. Not as dramatic, which a lot of people dislike, but I've always thought it easier on the gearbox.
 

Kev-ep91

Member +
Thanks lads. I missed out on a forged 5e bottom end the other day, and I got speaking to another engine builder who said I'm best off forging my 4E or I'll be going through gearboxes with a well sorted 5E due to the low down torque.

@Jay what kind of power are you running?

@Kev-ep91 what turbo setup are you running with your 5e? Are yo constantly at 310 or is that just high boost
1.4 bar on a TD04 hybrid, thats a constant 310.
 
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