blitz jam mines etc ecus what the big £ about

hardcoreep

Member +
Just like a human it has a learning capacity. A ballet dancer just cant become a soccer star. He/she can learn to play football, but they're no Andy Rooney at the end of the day. Does that mean because they don't make the premiere league they haven't learned.

If you look at the term "learn" at its base can be defined as:
gain knowledge or skills
get to know or become aware of
memorize: commit to memory; learn by heart
determine: find out, learn, or determine with certainty, usually by making an inquiry or other effort;

Now your ECU attempts to gain knowledge by monitoring the sensors. Once it becomes aware of whatever parameters are a)incorrect b)need to be adjusted c)happen over a long term period of time, then it memorises them and tries to incorporate this information to the best of its ability into itself.

That sounds like learning to me.
 
Just like a human it has a learning capacity. A ballet dancer just cant become a soccer star. He/she can learn to play football, but they're no Andy Rooney at the end of the day. Does that mean because they don't make the premiere league they haven't learned.

If you look at the term "learn" at its base can be defined as:
gain knowledge or skills
get to know or become aware of
memorize: commit to memory; learn by heart
determine: find out, learn, or determine with certainty, usually by making an inquiry or other effort;

Now your ECU attempts to gain knowledge by monitoring the sensors. Once it becomes aware of whatever parameters are a)incorrect b)need to be adjusted c)happen over a long term period of time, then it memorises them and tries to incorporate this information to the best of its ability into itself.

That sounds like learning to me.
Learning is the ability to gain knowledge outside the bounds of experience ie, plugging a starlet ecu into a Supra and being able to run it no problem which it can't do so its not learning anything new, just making adjustments according to the parameters which it was programmed with.
 

Texx

Admin
The Toyota software (TCCS) learns long fuel trim, however it's learning capability is limited to approx + or - 10% of it's default parameters. The software's main aim is to keep short fuel trim adjustments at 0%, so to do this over a period of time it monitors the level of adjustment it has to make to short trim. It then calculates how much adjustment it needs to make to long trim to bring short trim back to 0%, the result of this calculation is what the software uses to populate the long fuel trim look-up table. This process is learning as the values are not preprogrammed, the software calculates the values and stores them in it's memory for future use.

The technology is not exactly complicated, it's a simple sub-program within the ECU's software. It's not state of the art artificial intelligence nor is it an engine tuner in a box, but none the less TCCS monitors the fuel trim adjustments that it makes and learns or stores these values for later use.
 
The Toyota software (TCCS) learns long fuel trim, however it's learning capability is limited to approx + or - 10% of it's default parameters. The software's main aim is to keep short fuel trim adjustments at 0%, so to do this over a period of time it monitors the level of adjustment it has to make to short trim. It then calculates how much adjustment it needs to make to long trim to bring short trim back to 0%, the result of this calculation is what the software uses to populate the long fuel trim look-up table. This process is learning as the values are not preprogrammed, the software calculates the values and stores them in it's memory for future use.

The technology is not exactly complicated, it's a simple sub-program within the ECU's software. It's not state of the art artificial intelligence nor is it an engine tuner in a box, but none the less TCCS monitors the fuel trim adjustments that it makes and learns or stores these values for later use.
Ok, I see your point and maybe i'm being anal about it but to me, doing something within set parameters ISN'T learning. Its more like 'instinct' if you want to compare it to anything its like when a bird can migrate half way around the world when it hasn't done it before purely on instinct, once it has done it once it is able to do it on memory there after but this ISN'T a learned ability.

The storing of information, by which an ecu can make adjustments at a later date, isn't in my opinion learning. If it has been written into the programme to make certain changes according to certain criteria over a given period of time then it is still adhering to the parameters that were assigned to it when it was manufactured
 

spuddy

Ulster Area Rep.
Ok, I see your point and maybe i'm being anal about it but to me, doing something within set parameters ISN'T learning. Its more like 'instinct' if you want to compare it to anything its like when a bird can migrate half way around the world when it hasn't done it before purely on instinct, once it has done it once it is able to do it on memory there after but this ISN'T a learned ability.

The storing of information, by which an ecu can make adjustments at a later date, isn't in my opinion learning. If it has been written into the programme to make certain changes according to certain criteria over a given period of time then it is still adhering to the parameters that were assigned to it when it was manufactured
Well said.
 

hardcoreep

Member +
I think you're expecting human level learning. It is defined as LEARNING, the parameters may not be high, but that's what it is. By the way Bird do learn to migrate. They then teach that to subisquent generations till it becomes instinct, at which point any major changes will be eventually re-learnt.
 
I think you're expecting human level learning. It is defined as LEARNING, the parameters may not be high, but that's what it is. By the way Bird do learn to migrate. They then teach that to subisquent generations till it becomes instinct, at which point any major changes will be eventually re-learnt.
Look, i understand what you saying, i agree that they have the ability to change their map given different information from the sensors. All i'm saying is that I dont agree that its actually 'learning' when it does this. I'm not expecting human level learning, i'm just applying the meaning of the word. If an ecu is preprogrammed as to how to react according to the readings it receives from its sensors then in my opinion it is hasn't learned anything, it is simply doing what it is programmed. Its ability to change the map, how it would go about changing the map and by how much it could change its map was preprogrammed into it.

I don't want to start an argument with you on this because I have seen loads of your previous posts on many different topics and I know full well that you are very experienced and knowledgeable when it come to cars. I'm not disputing this fact in any way, shape or form and im pretty sure you have helped me out on one or two occasions so its not my intention to belittle you in any way or contradict you just for the sake of it. I'm simply stating my understanding of what 'Self Learning' is and to me no ecu on the market has that ability yet.
 

H_D

Member +
im gonna be fitting a zep racing ecu on my car (wich i paid a fortune for) works the same way as a jam, blitz or mines....i will be running on the standard ct at 1bar and i have the following performance mods already, hdi fmic, hks hi power silent exhaust from downpipe, jap performance downpipe, hks actuator, relocated air filter, zisco ram style mild steel manifold and a manual boost controller.........at the same time a friend has the same setup as me but wants to go the emanage route sometime next year.....if emange works better i will sell my ecu and let u know the outcome.
 

Texx

Admin
Ok, I see your point and maybe i'm being anal about it but to me, doing something within set parameters ISN'T learning.
Obviously your welcome to your own opinion. :)

From my own experience, the term learn is widely used across many manufacturers (Honda, Mitsubishi, Toyota etc...) for this kind of process. Whether it be idle learn, fuel trim learn, start clutch learn, steering neutral position learn, spark advance learn etc... they are all typically referred to as learn processes.
 
Obviously your welcome to your own opinion. :)

From my own experience, the term learn is widely used across many manufacturers (Honda, Mitsubishi, Toyota etc...) for this kind of process. Whether it be idle learn, fuel trim learn, start clutch learn, steering neutral position learn, spark advance learn etc... they are all typically referred to as learn processes.
Touche ;)
 

Paddy

Lifer
thats gd Paddy, i agree with you but lets say it they are a bit pricey but worth it even in my case!
yea they are but if u compare it to say emanage, if u were to buy a plug and play harness for it (the main reason i bouught a jam ecu as i just wanted plug and play) and then get it mapped, surely it would be around the same price, i looked at the harnesses for emanage and there not cheap, if u can find one that is
 

hardcoreep

Member +
im gonna be fitting a zep racing ecu on my car (wich i paid a fortune for) works the same way as a jam, blitz or mines....i will be running on the standard ct at 1bar and i have the following performance mods already, hdi fmic, hks hi power silent exhaust from downpipe, jap performance downpipe, hks actuator, relocated air filter, zisco ram style mild steel manifold and a manual boost controller.........at the same time a friend has the same setup as me but wants to go the emanage route sometime next year.....if emange works better i will sell my ecu and let u know the outcome.
So, the first comparison here is price.

a) What have you paid for your ZEP ECU?
b) What will he pay for the eManage + harnesses (fuel and/or ignition) + installation, and tuning.
 

Vglanza

Member +
i could get a comparison from my blitz access and the standard ecu, as i have already got the figures for the standard ecu, just a matter of going up to the dyno on saturday to get a print out with the Blitz access in. because my car is running standard boost, and all i have done is a decat and exhaust. will be the same dyno aswell
 

Guye

Lifer
Very interesting thread! Reminds me of the technical discussions from the old site. Here's my input. For those who say dyno a GT with the stock ecu then fit a plug and play unit and compare the results within minutes...this would not be a valid comparision. You simply will not see the full potential of one of these units within minutes of fitting. As Texx's post show, the programming found on toyota's ecu allows for "learning" or adjusting to a optimal albeit safe map depending on conditions and sensor inputs. This is why these cars can turn key and run on 100ron fuel or 90ron, at sea level of 2500ft above, in 32degree ambient air temp or -10degree. The thing is, these plug and play units from the 90's use a 16bit processor for this process. Any user of these units will have noticed that the difference in performance is not immediate...in fact it it gained after some kms have been driven and the ecu gets to "see" the inputs from the sensors. I have been using a Jam unit for years and I have noticed this "learning" and trimming whenever I make a major change to my setup or boost level.
My understanding of the way these units works is this. Imagine that toyota has produced these cars and then capped the engine's pontential output to 60%. These unit were then use to raise that limit to about 80-85%. There is still a safety margin for reliability but by removing or raising the limiters the dynamics of the engine's output will change dramatically from stock. Take yourself back to 1992...this result would be a big deal. Fast forward to 2010...the resulting increase is still a big deal! The issue is, are they still worth the prices being asked today? For a purist like me, yes. I have a peice of starlet tuning history fitted to my 19 year old car that works. For all other practical intents, no. 5 years ago the price of a standalone unit, harness and tuning here was huge. And back then tuners here made mistakes as they did "trial and error" tuning. Not so anymore. Just my 2 cents.
 

Vglanza

Member +
Would need to be same dyno same day mate :) as weather and temperature plays a bit part in it
Ano mate but as said the Blitz ECU wont have adapted too my car if i plug it in an dyno it that day, it wouldn't give the ECU a fair result. it was this time 2 years ago i dyno'd the car december too be exact and the weather doesn't really change much here anyway lol:) atleast it would give some indication.
 

hardcoreep

Member +
The thing is, these plug and play units from the 90's use a 16bit processor for this process.
EP82 ECU is 8bit. EP91 ECU is 16bit.

Any user of these units will have noticed that the difference in performance is not immediate...in fact it it gained after some kms have been driven and the ecu gets to "see" the inputs from the sensors.
Agreed. It took about a week for mine to 'bed in' It got faster and faster and then reached a sort of plateau. I live 56miles from my work and I drive in 6days a week so that's 112miles a day over very different terrain. The best it ever felt was one day when a friend emptied his canister of 103 octane VP race gas inot my tank because he'd done competing for the day. The drive home that evening showed me the full potential of that ECU.
 

Vglanza

Member +
Hi guys i went too the rollers on saturday to compare the Car With The BLitz against the run i done when i didnt have it, the graphs a bit hard too read but red is with the Blitz ECU, and the car went from 138.7 BHP 135.3 lbft to 156.7 bhp 152.7 lbft and the torque gain was almost through out the entire range. the ECU cost me 500 quid 2 years ago, and was a simple plug in and play.
 
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