building a 5E (stock internals?)

rage

Lifer
I was wondering about building a 5E engine.
read the wiki about it and that clarified a lot :) so much thanks for that writeup!

but i'm curious about the stock internals of a 5E, howmuch boost can they safely take? same as the 4E? 1 bar?

howmuch power (estimate) should the 5E make @ the fly on a TD04 @ 1 bar on stock internals?
 

aiki_joker

Member +
I'm sure the guys on here have loads more info, but I wldnt try running a bar on stock internals with a regular 5E. But I'm too careful I think. Unless you have the 5EFHE pistons that have a higher stock comp ratio 1 bar would not be advised. Would probably run but have some spares ready just incase.

I believe they over design these things anyway, the std 5E may well take the punishment so if you have plenty of spares you can just replace the parts as they go. Then you are effectively whittling down to the best parts for you application. Mark from CBM Autos if a prime example with his engine(s) :)

Or just get some forged pistons and rods, this will stop you worrying and you may well end up spending more than the cost of the pistons and rods repairing any damage anyway. The 5EFHE rods are hard to come by but provide a more cost effective alternative.
 
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pig666eon

Member +
I was wondering about building a 5E engine.
read the wiki about it and that clarified a lot :) so much thanks for that writeup!

but i'm curious about the stock internals of a 5E, howmuch boost can they safely take? same as the 4E? 1 bar?

howmuch power (estimate) should the 5E make @ the fly on a TD04 @ 1 bar on stock internals?

well man pic of the rods
Conrod-Comparison-front-fac.jpg



and download the 5e man i have here it should give you some extra info
http://www.toyotagtturbo.com/forums/showthread.php?75863-4e-and-5e-repair-manuals&highlight=
 

rage

Lifer
the rods look the same as the 4efte rods (only a bit longer) so it seems they would be ok with the normal rev range. so i think i could get away with just replacing the pistons with forged ones.

hmm. i really need to compile a list of parts that i'll be needing :)
 

pig666eon

Member +
For an OEM 5EFTE CT9 build……here’s the spoon feeding list for all………

- 4efte Cam cover
- 4efte or 5efhe/fe head…with either 4efte or 5efhe cams (MARGINALLY better)…..make sure u keep the shims with whatever cams u use…or reshimming may be becessary
- 4efte head gasket…5efhe or trd head gaskets are also used (but trd raise compression somewhat)
- 4efte intake manifold…5efhe ACIS can be used, but usually requires something to operate it properly
- 5e block
- 4efte pistons or some people shave the 5e pistons (TRIED and PROVEN by MANY),,,in fact some people shave the 4efte pistons……but then a lot of u guys are afraid to do this,,,,,,,,so stick to the oem 4efte ones then
- 4efte piston rings, if u use 4efte pistons………..5e pistons rings if u use 5e psitons………there is a difference in part numbers,,,,,,,,,but people have been know to use any set with any pistons and they work fine
- 5e rods…5efhe preferred for bigger boost,,,,,,,,5efe rods can be used if u don’t plan to over do it----(max 12PSI)
- 4e/5e cam gear/wheel...set timing using 5e mark.........and set base timing at 10 degrees.........or as desired, as some may want to retard base timing depending on set up and gas quality
- 4efte injectors at MINIMUM
- 4e/5e oem fuel pressure regualtor or aftermarket unit...run anywhere from 2.3 - 3 bar (1bar = 14.7PSI), on initial set up,,,BUT depends again on your set up......tune to suit
- 4e/5e fuel rail
- 5e idler and tensioner pulleys
- 4e/5e crank gear
- 5e timing belt
- 4efte ecu, harness and map sensor at minimum.....the greddy ultimate on the 5e ecu or 4efte ecu is also great for fine tuning...
- 5e crank…..some prefer 5efhe crank (stamped “5e”) on it……while others use the “3e” marked crank which comes in some 5e blocks
- 5e thrust washers
- 5e flywheel (200mm)……or redrilled 4efte flywheel (212mm), again, has been done several times, just make sure you have a competent machinist………OR try to get the 5e bolt pattern flywheel that holds the 212mm clutch set up (usually found on some 3E engines)
- 5e clutch and 5e pressure plate OR 4efte clutch and 4efte pressure plate….NOT to be mixed and matched
- 5e/4e oil pump……….make sure u get the one that matches what is there………as far as I’m aware they are two types
- 4e or 5e oil relief valve
- 4efte oil pick up and 4efte sump…OR 5e oil pick up and 5e sump….to be used together and not in combinations………i.e. choose one and use both units together…..note,,,u wouldhave to drill and tap the 5e sump for the oil return
- 5e connecting bearings…make sure u get the correct sizes---check the back of the used one
- 5e main bearings ---- make sure u get the correct sizes---check the block and crank and do some adding of the numbers or check the back of the used one
- 4efte exhaust manifold…BEWARE a custom unit is preferred as the oem unit is VERY restrictive on the 5e
- 1 ct9 turbo and downpipe with all gaskets ---IF u are going to use the ct9 turbo for a short while……also, your muffler may need a slight extension as the 5e block is about 10mm taller…..else use whatever set up (turbo) u plan to run along with supporting exhaust manifold and downpipe
- 4e/5e water pump and hoses
- 4efte thermostat, housing and sensors
- 4e/5e gearbox/transmission
- 4efte distributor or 5efhe distributor…..same basic unit
- 4efte plug wires
- 5e timing covers
- 5e oil/dip stick and housing
- 4efte TMIC----NOT the best idea,,,but would work for ct9 set up…..if u already have a FMIC set up,,,use it back
- 1 gallon oil
- 1 pouch of sealant
- 1 oil filter…4e/5e…same thing
- 1 gallon coolant
- 4 spark plugs
- 1 cam shaft seal
- 1 crank shaft seal (front)
- 1 crank shaft seal (rear)
- 2 turbo water lines if required---depends on turbo unit use
- 1 oil line
- 1 oil return line
- all rubber gaskets
- all other asscessories from 4efte….a/c, p/s, alternator, etc

install,,,,run in……..and maybe get tuned if you are smart

areas to be cautious of:
- power steering pump....u may need to custom make a bracket or just use the adjuster piece to hold it in place
 

rage

Lifer
thx for this list! will be very usefull :D

just 1 thing i can't quite get right in my head.

can i use the 5e flywheel with a 4efte clutch disk/cover?
 

ramses974

Member +
I was wondering about building a 5E engine.
read the wiki about it and that clarified a lot :) so much thanks for that writeup!

but i'm curious about the stock internals of a 5E, howmuch boost can they safely take? same as the 4E? 1 bar?

howmuch power (estimate) should the 5E make @ the fly on a TD04 @ 1 bar on stock internals?

i have a paseo and first i have done this modification.The stock 5efe can handle no more than 0.8bar with a stock ct9 and you are at the limit...with the 5efhe it is diferent you can go to 1.4bar easily cause rods are strong...a lot of people prefer taking the 5efhe rods with the stock starlet low compression pistons or the stock top flat piston from the european paseo version to prevent detonation problem... on a 5e with a td04 you will always get more than 30hp and more torque than normal ct9 due to the flow..This is the flow of the td04 that helps to stress the engine and damage the 5efe rods
 

finx

Member +
i have a paseo and first i have done this modification.The stock 5efe can handle no more than 0.8bar with a stock ct9 and you are at the limit...with the 5efhe it is diferent you can go to 1.4bar easily cause rods are strong...a lot of people prefer taking the 5efhe rods with the stock starlet low compression pistons or the stock top flat piston from the european paseo version to prevent detonation problem... on a 5e with a td04 you will always get more than 30hp and more torque than normal ct9 due to the flow..This is the flow of the td04 that helps to stress the engine and damage the 5efe rods

im sorry mate but just about everything you have posted there is incorrect. sounds like you have been reading alot of fairy tails and are just reiterating what has previously been posted by people who either dont know what they are talking about or did something wrong.

the stock 5efe is just as capable of holding the same boost levels as the 5efhe. both engines came in different configurations of rods and pistons. The early 5efhe had the thicker rods vs the thin rods on the 5efe and the later engines it was reversed.
my own car which runs a 5efhe 9:8:1 compression at 10psi on a ct9b has been going strong for over a year and a half, has been to mulitple track days and more drag meetings than i care to remember. results are in my signature. my particular engine is also a later model 5efhe which has the thin rods, and i havnt noticed any poking out the side of my block.
same deal with detonation, only at higher boost levels will this become a problem and can easily be countered by higher octane fuel and reduced base timing. certainly 20psi + wont be possible without race gas and a serious tune but i assume thats not what the engine in question is going to be asked of

low Torque levels are also not attributed to the ct9 turbo alone. once again proof against this is my own car which makes over 400NM at the wheels. which brings me to the clutch size question. you can run a modifed 5e on the 200mm clutch once again my own car is proof, with a little known brand 4puck and heavy duty pressure plate i have had it doing 3rd gear burnouts on a proper drag strip pre staging area using 225 hoosier drag radials, just another myth busted.



this has been covered so many times that im not going to get into to much detail as it will cause controversy and attract from the purpose of this thread very quickly.

1 bar boost pressure is achievable on stock internals, if you have the supporting mods to hold it all together.
after market ecu
fuel mods, injectors fuel pump, regulator in some instances
good exhaust and intake/ intercoler piping
and a good tune, all of these are just the start of a capable set up that will hold together.

do some more research and if you still have questions come back to us


cheers
Ryan
 
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Dan507

Member +
when i trade my Glanza S in for a Glanza V i would love to go 5E. well 5EFHTE ;) td04 @ 1.3 bar, with supporting mods. i reckon about 250-260bhp

5E @1 bar.....i guestamate....220bhp ish
 

ramses974

Member +
im sorry mate but just about everything you have posted there is incorrect. sounds like you have been reading alot of fairy tails and are just reiterating what has previously been posted by people who either dont know what they are talking about or did something wrong.

the stock 5efe is just as capable of holding the same boost levels as the 5efhe. both engines came in different configurations of rods and pistons. The early 5efhe had the thicker rods vs the thin rods on the 5efe and the later engines it was reversed.
my own car which runs a 5efhe 9:8:1 compression at 10psi on a ct9b has been going strong for over a year and a half, has been to mulitple track days and more drag meetings than i care to remember. results are in my signature. my particular engine is also a later model 5efhe which has the thin rods, and i havnt noticed any poking out the side of my block.
same deal with detonation, only at higher boost levels will this become a problem and can easily be countered by higher octane fuel and reduced base timing. certainly 20psi + wont be possible without race gas and a serious tune but i assume thats not what the engine in question is going to be asked of

low Torque levels are also not attributed to the ct9 turbo alone. once again proof against this is my own car which makes over 400NM at the wheels. which brings me to the clutch size question. you can run a modifed 5e on the 200mm clutch once again my own car is proof, with a little known brand 4puck and heavy duty pressure plate i have had it doing 3rd gear burnouts on a proper drag strip pre staging area using 225 hoosier drag radials, just another myth busted.



this has been covered so many times that im not going to get into to much detail as it will cause controversy and attract from the purpose of this thread very quickly.

1 bar boost pressure is achievable on stock internals, if you have the supporting mods to hold it all together.
after market ecu
fuel mods, injectors fuel pump, regulator in some instances
good exhaust and intake/ intercoler piping
and a good tune, all of these are just the start of a capable set up that will hold together.

do some more research and if you still have questions come back to us


cheers
Ryan

ok ypu think that i ma a guy who passes his time to read a lot of story...
if i am a liar talk TREVOR ALIAS GT REVVA ON FORUM BOARD TERCEL !!!! all my set up was coming from BYP from florida !!!

YOU WANT SOME PICS OF MY CAR ???

P1030323-1.jpg

P1030322.jpg


i have Expermiented a lot the 5e and all the misadventure of this engine and GT REVVA know this...
 
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ramses974

Member +
im sorry mate but just about everything you have posted there is incorrect. sounds like you have been reading alot of fairy tails and are just reiterating what has previously been posted by people who either dont know what they are talking about or did something wrong.

...
Ryan


1) the fairy tails are not for me ...i have done my conversion since a few years with some advise of Back YArd Production ..
set up was
Garet T3 T4
550cc injector
greddy emanage and profec eo1
BAck yard custom equal lenght manifold turbo and top mount
Je piston oversized
5EFHE all forged !!!
etc
 

ramses974

Member +
the stock 5efe is just as capable of holding the same boost levels as the 5efhe.....
my own car which runs a 5efhe 9:8:1 compression at 10psi on a ct9b has been going strong for over a year and a half, has been to mulitple track days and more drag meetings than i care to remember. ....



Ryan

impossible with a TDO4 with stock 5EFE internal at 1 bar !! a ct9 is not a tdO4 !!
5EFE is weaker than 5EFHE
why in the states they use 5EFHE instead of 5EFE !!i know the 5EFE is week with its stock internal... i have experimented this ...of course at 0,8bar the stock internal with a litle ct9 (be sure to not use the 4EFTE manifold with the 5EFE engine ..) will last with a properly tune ,but not a TD04 !!!.
 
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gedis

Member +
i have a paseo and first i have done this modification.The stock 5efe can handle no more than 0.8bar with a stock ct9 and you are at the limit...with the 5efhe it is diferent you can go to 1.4bar easily cause rods are strong...a lot of people prefer taking the 5efhe rods with the stock starlet low compression pistons or the stock top flat piston from the european paseo version to prevent detonation problem... on a 5e with a td04 you will always get more than 30hp and more torque than normal ct9 due to the flow..This is the flow of the td04 that helps to stress the engine and damage the 5efe rods
WRONG
i built stock 5efte couple monts back, and heres the picture of later 4efte vs 5efe rods
DSC01267.jpg

althought i used 4efte pistons on them rods to keep the compresion lower, but with proper mapping 5efe pistons will work 2
 

ramses974

Member +
WRONG
i built stock 5efte couple monts back, and heres the picture of later 4efte vs 5efe rods
DSC01267.jpg

althought i used 4efte pistons on them rods to keep the compresion lower, but with proper mapping 5efe pistons will work 2

with a tdO4 at 1 bar ?????? stock 5EFE !!
 

ramses974

Member +
GT3040 with 5EFE rods !!!!!!!!!
i prefer saying that i do not know nothing about 5EFE in front of guys in Ireland and still in my island !!!
hope for you it will last long !!!
 

gedis

Member +
GT3040 with 5EFE rods !!!!!!!!!
i prefer saying that i do not know nothing about 5EFE in front of guys in Ireland and still in my island !!!
hope for you it will last long !!!

look at the picture, 5efe rods are thicker than later 4efte, i ran stock 4efte on that turbo at 1.1bar(made 246bhp), than got meself 5efe and ran that same turbo and same boost, it looked safe to me as the rods were thicker, didnt wanted to push my luck uping the boost again as i already had some forged internals on the way, that 4efte(one with thiner rods) its running ct9 hybrid at 1.1bar(1.25 overboost) at the moment with no isues
 

ramses974

Member +
look at the picture, 5efe rods are thicker than later 4efte, i ran stock 4efte on that turbo at 1.1bar(made 246bhp), than got meself 5efe and ran that same turbo and same boost, it looked safe to me as the rods were thicker, didnt wanted to push my luck uping the boost again as i already had some forged internals on the way, that 4efte(one with thiner rods) its running ct9 hybrid at 1.1bar(1.25 overboost) at the moment with no isues

you think that i have never seen a 5EFE stock rods ???? and you still think that i have never seen a 4efte rods???
komdi creol " tro faib pour la france tro for pour la réunion"
...
 

finx

Member +
next time, man up and say it in English mate.


a ct9 is not a tdO4 !!.
your dead right, find me more then 5 tdo4l powered cars that are proven to be faster down the strip than my ct9 or make more torque for the same boost pressure or up to 1 bar (torque is one of the main killers of rods).

im not trying to discredit you or make you look bad mate im just stating the truth and that these things are possible. so far u have provided no proof that its not possible al we have is your word for it which doesnt stack up to much vs the evidence that has been put forth so far and in other threads in the passed.
i have built, driven and worked on multiple small rod 4e's 5e's running td04ls and even bigger turbos on more than 1 bar boost. one engine in particular i have worked on made well over 300HP on boost levels i wont even bother stating.

i could tell from the 1st minute where this thread was heading. people are still not willing to accept proven facts over their own personal ideas and or opinions that are merely gauged upon false information they have been feed.
there are many many threads all over this forum on this exact topic from a number of different members from all over the world that have said and proven with hard evidence that these kinds of figures and results are possible.
or is this all just a conspiracy put together with high precision and choreographed by strangers from across the globe to make people waste their money for a laugh. wonder which is more believable


im starting to wonder if some of these people still think flying is impossible and that women that can do things men can do are witches.






ryan
 
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