Manifold RANT

munday

Member +
I don't know where u got that idea. The first thing I noticed was an increase in response and a better overall powerband. The dyno sheet backed this up clearly indicating that the torque curve started earlier.

Please note i had a Cruise manifold of which I suspected they actually tested the runner diameters and didn't just mock something up. Their 4E manifold was 38mm and the 5E manifold was 40mm+. Their reasoning seemed quite clear, the manifold provides enough internal volume between the head and the small CT9 exhaust housing. I dont know what the runner diameter are on other manifolds so maybe that's why you maybe experienced a drop in response.

I would guess the better response and torque was due to a better designed manifold than standard. Having a step from the ports to a larger diameter runner is not good for the flow characteristics and simply seems like a waste to me. I cant see the gain in having runners that are larger than the ports that feed them :confused:

The 5e manifold having larger dia runners makes sense, broadly speaking if you have equivalent sized engines one turbo and one NA, the turbo manifold runners should be around 3/4 the size of the NA
 

Texx

Super Moderator
Having a step from the ports to a larger diameter runner is not good for the flow characteristics and simply seems like a waste to me. I cant see the gain in having runners that are larger than the ports that feed them :confused:

Having exhaust manifold runners with a larger diameter than the exhaust ports will decrease flow resistance or back pressure, increase volumetric efficiency and also increase the low pressure left behind the exhaust pulse which in turn creates a better exhaust scavenging effect as the exhaust valves close. However, runners that are too large will cause the exhaust gas to expand and slow down as it leaves the exhaust ports which decreases the scavenging effect. Manifold runners that are too small will create flow resistance which restricts the escape of exhaust gas from the combustion chamber, reducing power and also leaving exhaust gas in the combustion chamber to contaminate the incoming intake charge. Since engines produce more exhaust gas at higher speeds and increased turbo boost pressures, larger manifold runners are used in performance applications. Generally, short manifold runners with a larger diameter give a better gain in power and torque at higher engine speeds, where as longer manifold runners with a matched diameter are likely to offer a better gain at lower engine speeds.
 
i thinks he was orginally talking about stock manifold at stock boost levels. but everyone seems to be attacking him for stuff he wasn't really stating. he did say it make sense getting a mild steel manifold at higher boost levels.

I think he was trying say that he is tired of people trying to tell him a uprated manifold is necessary at stock levels. I can see his point. :cool:
 

ruggiero06

Member +
i thinks he was orginally talking about stock manifold at stock boost levels. but everyone seems to be attacking him for stuff he wasn't really stating. he did say it make sense getting a mild steel manifold at higher boost levels.

I think he was trying say that he is tired of people trying to tell him a uprated manifold is necessary at stock levels. I can see his point. :cool:



you sir get rep for knowing how to read :]
 

Jay

Admin
OK, lets take a closer look at one of these manifolds that were allegedly put through R&D to withstand a stock boost pressure of 0.65bar.

This particular manifold was removed from my car after 55,000 miles. The cars engine was stock. Stock CAT, stock intake, stock turbo and stock boost pressure.

As you can see from this photo, the manifold has cracked in the upper section of cyl No.3 runner directly opposite the restriction caused by the turbo mounting stud recess.

manifold1.jpg


If we then flip the manifold over and look at the collector, it is now apparent that the manifold has cracked all of the way through from the center of the collector to the outside upper section of cyl No.3 runner. This is clearly down the build up of heat caused by the restriction in cyl No.3 runner as the crack is directly opposite the restriction.

manifold3.jpg


It then makes you wonder that if the restriction in cyl No.3 runner of the stock manifold creates enough heat to crack a piece of cast iron all the way through from the inside to the outside when still running a stock boost level along with stock intake and exhaust restrictions, then what would it be doing to the piston in cyl No.3 after you've removed the stock intake and exhaust restrictions and increased the boost level to 0.8bar. Hence the advice, replace the stock manifold.

Don't fool yourself into thinking Toyota spent time and money researching and developing the stock manifold for a 4E-FTE, it just didn't happen. They would have sent a request to their engine department to modify an already known good engine i.e. the 4E-FE, into a turbocharged application. The engine dept would have then designed a manifold that would enable them to bolt a turbocharger to a 4E-FE. I'd put money on the fact that more time was spent altering the position of the turbo than flow testing the manifold, as long as the final output of the engine met the initial request criteria then it would of been signed off ready to go. The restriction in runner No.3 wouldn't have been in the original design of the manifold, it would of been an outcome of the manufacturing process. If Toyota even thought it to be a problem they would have likely decided to play a numbers game the same as most manufacturers would do in a similar situation. For example, if they built 10,000 motors and only 50 failed within the warranty period because of that particular issue, it would of likely been decided that it would be cheaper to just replace the failed units under warranty than to go back and spend additional time and money redesigning the stock manifold.

Manufacturers are in the business of making money. They will design something to last the length of the warranty period, after that time it becomes the owners responsibility to pick up the bill of any repair, which ultimately means returning to the manufacturer and spending more money with them on replacement parts. They don't want to sell you a car that lasts forever, they want it to fail at some point, preferably when the warranty period has expired so you will either go back to them for replacement parts or go back to them to buy a new vehicle.


That is a decade old mate. It's lasted at least 9 years more than the warranty period and you're saying it's not up to the job?

If you think that poor mani hasn't done it's duty you're being a little harsh. Just think of the heat cycles that thing has seen. It actually works out around a £1 for every month it's been on the car.

Show me the aftermarket manifold that can match that.







(And if you say JAM I want a documented example :haha: )
 

hardcoreep

Member +
Every aftermarket manifold I have ever had has cracked and ive had a good selection. When my one fitted now cracks again Ill be doing a massive porting job on a standard one and running 1.3 bar through it.

Please, tell me how the engine rebuild will go.

I have a JAM Racing cast manifold. Works fine. Its actually cast larger than the stock manifold and I might port it later because there is clearly enough material to be removed without affecting its integrity. However the difference in performance over a tubular manifold, is noticeable, so when i get my TRD mounts and a second manifold I will be testing.
 

Chris@CCM

Member +
lol bit of a rant going on hear guys ! well lets just say this ive never seen a piston break due to the stock manifold ive seen them break ever piston but number 3 on a high boost k24 so work that out. il get a back a to back dyno with a ported v stock very soon.

im not geting at any one hear but looking at other post about the 4e v 5e timing ppl jump the gun abit. i dont look at things other ppl have said any more cos alot of the time there not rite.
 

munday

Member +
Having exhaust manifold runners with a larger diameter than the exhaust ports will decrease flow resistance or back pressure, increase volumetric efficiency and also increase the low pressure left behind the exhaust pulse which in turn creates a better exhaust scavenging effect as the exhaust valves close. However, runners that are too large will cause the exhaust gas to expand and slow down as it leaves the exhaust ports which decreases the scavenging effect. Manifold runners that are too small will create flow resistance which restricts the escape of exhaust gas from the combustion chamber, reducing power and also leaving exhaust gas in the combustion chamber to contaminate the incoming intake charge. Since engines produce more exhaust gas at higher speeds and increased turbo boost pressures, larger manifold runners are used in performance applications. Generally, short manifold runners with a larger diameter give a better gain in power and torque at higher engine speeds, where as longer manifold runners with a matched diameter are likely to offer a better gain at lower engine speeds.

But the step will increase turbulence, and you want to maintain the high pressure before the turbo for best response, spool and maximum amount of boost. On a turbocharged car the effect of scavenging is negligable, almost to the point of not mattering. I can see the potential advantage if you are running a massive turbo and dont really care about spool times, i suppose i should have said im only really talking about the ct9 here, where its all about response and mid range.

Rep for knowing what you are on about though ;) EDIT: oops it wont let me yet, got to spread the love :)
 

hardcoreep

Member +
On a turbocharged car the effect of scavenging is negligable, almost to the point of not mattering.
I suggest you test that fact before you repeat this. Having a equal length manifold that uses the firing order gives you better response on any turbocharger. JAM used to make an equal length manifold for the CT9, but it would burn the top of the bonnet due to its design. This is also something I've tested s well. People here normally use the 4E/5E manifold which is just a hole. I was telling people that the response they were getting was poor, so we did up a equal manifold and the difference is significant.

The other thing not in the picture seems to be the standard convention about DOHC engine. The E-series produces a lot of exhaust velocity for its displacement due to its design.
 
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munday

Member +
I suggest you test that fact before you repeat this. Having a equal length manifold that uses the firing order gives you better response on any turbocharger. JAM used to make an equal length manifold for the CT9, but it would burn the top of the bonnet due to its design. This is also something I've tested s well. People here normally use the 4E/5E manifold which is just a hole. I was telling people that the response they were getting was poor, so we did up a equal manifold and the difference is significant.

The other thing not in the picture seems to be the standard convention about DOHC engine. The E-series produces a lot of exhaust velocity for its displacement due to its design.

I disagree about pulse tuning giving better turbo response, even with equal length manifolds unless you have spend hundreds of hours flow testing it then you are likely to experience reversion, and reflection of the pulses meaning its not actually pulse tuned at all!

This is a copied and pasted extract...
Start talking about turbo exhaust manifold design and people have all sorts of theories. Most say that equal-length, long runners should be used – irrespective of the length of runner that then results. But others say runners should be grouped on the basis of firing order. Sounds easy – until you ask some questions. Like, grouped exactly how on the basis of firing order? Or, how important is it that the runners are of equal length? For example, is it more important that runner length be equal – or the runners are organised to provide the best flow? After all, the longer the runner, inside a typical engine bay the more bends it’s likely to have in it and the greater resistance it will pose to flow.

Let’s take a look at what the experts actually have to say.


The original bible of turbocharging is Turbochargers, by Hugh MacInnes (published by HP Books). Despite being first published in 1978 – and so containing almost nothing that relates to EFI engines – the core content of the book has stood up surprisingly well in the years since. MacInnes suggests that turbo exhaust manifolds should use small diameter runners with about the same internal area as the ports and that in turbo engines, the use of “smooth flowing exhaust headers with beautiful swerving bends.... is more aesthetic than power-increasing”. Except for V8 engines, he makes no comments at all about grouping the flow from cylinders in any particular manner.


Another old book is Turbocharging and Supercharging, by Alan Allard (first published by Patrick Stephens in 1982). Allard says: “The main criteria when designing and fabricating an exhaust manifold are: firstly, to build in sufficient strength to take the weight of the turbocharger system and to remain rigid without distortion or fracture even when working up to 1000 degrees C; and secondly, to have sufficient wall thickness (3.0mm minimum is recommended) to withstand the corrosion effects of running up to high temperature over a long period.”

Allard suggests the use of a log-type manifold pipe of not more than 2.5 times, and not less that double, the area of one exhaust port. The log is joined to the individual exhaust ports with stubs with the same inside diameter as the exhaust ports, each as short as possible and of equal length. The stubs can enter the log at right-angles or be angled towards the turbo.


However, while not mentioned in the text, a diagram shows a 1-3-4-2 firing order four cylinder engine using a manifold where cylinders 1 and 2, and 3 and 4, are paired and fed to a split-pulse turbine. In addition, again while it is not discussed in the text, many turbo racing engines are shown where equal-length long runners join at a common collector just prior to the turbo.


Automotive Supercharging and Turbocharging Systems was first published in 1992 by Motorbooks International. The author is John Humphries. Of my references, this book provides the most detailed treatment of turbo exhaust manifolds. However, rather than making things clearer, if anything it further muddies the waters! The book suggests that there are two fundamentally different approaches to turbo exhaust manifold design.

The first is to use a manifold with sufficiently large internal volume that the exhaust output pulses of each cylinder are damped and a more or less constant pressure is available to the turbine. The internal volume of the manifold sufficient to obtain this pulse dampening can be 1.4 – 6 times the swept volume of the engine. That rules out pretty well all long runner exhaust manifolds, although a log-type one of the sort suggest by Allard may fit into the bottom end of this scale, and the current fashion in the US for mounting the turbo at the back of the car (in a car with a front engine!) would also conform to this approach.

The second approach is a pulse system, where the exhaust pulses provide additional short-term energy to the turbine. In a pulse-type manifold, Humphries suggests that the pipe runners should have a “cross-sectional area....not significantly greater than the geometric valve area at full lift [and] these connections should be kept short and free of sharp bends”.

He says the reflection of pulses within the system will be determined by pipe length, exhaust temperature and the status (ie open, closed or partially open) of the exhaust valves. In addition, at pipe junctions the exhaust pulses will split, with smaller magnitude exhaust pulses travelling down each pipe. “The overall pressure wave system that occurs in such a manifold will be very complex, with pulses propagating from each cylinder, pulse division at each junction, total or partial reflection at an exhaust valve...and reflection from the turbine.”

In order to take advantage of this pulse flow, “narrow pipes from several cylinders can be connected through a single branched manifold to one turbine....a four stroke engine which can have its cylinders grouped into threes is particularly attractive.” This is because “the opening periods of the exhaust valves follow successively every 240 degrees with very little overlap between them.... thus a sequence of pressure pulses arrives at the turbine...”


Humphries suggests that the use of twin turbos on a six cylinder engine allows for efficient pulse operation, and where cylinder multiples are not in threes, a single turbo entry can be linked to multiple cylinders through “pulse converters”. Pulse converters are suitably shaped junctions which prevent reverse pulse flow. Humphries shows a four cylinder exhaust manifold with cylinders 1 and 2, and cylinders 3 and 4, paired and then coming together through a pulse converter junction.


One of the more recent books on turbocharging is Corky Bell’s Maximum Boost (published by Robert Bentley, 1997). Bell suggest that it is important the manifold retains heat, prevents reverse flow (eg by the use of so-called reversion cones in the first section of each runner), and is designed to minimise thermal loads on each section of the manifold. The latter can be achieved by the use of runners from each cylinder travelling separately to the turbo inlet – that way, each runner is subjected only to the heating loads of one cylinder. It is implied but not stated that controlling these heating loads is more important than flowing the individual pulses in a sequence to the turbine – in the diagram the pipes are of unequal lengths.

Bell also says that the experience with turbo F1 cars suggests that “the best manifolding is multiple-tube, individual runner style”. As with the other authors, he recommends the use of relatively small diameter runners with large wall thicknesses. With regard to pulse tuning, he says “a design that allows exhaust gas pulses to arrive at the turbine at regularly spaced intervals is ideal but difficult to achieve”.

So what does one make of all of that?

Firstly, it’s clear that these authors agree that the use of heavy wall tube (“steam pipe”) bends are preferable to thin gauge materials. Secondly, the individual cylinder runners should be sized smaller rather than larger, being near to port size. It also appears that if it is possible within the confines of the engine bay, equal-length runners that join at the turbo are to be recommended. In six cylinder engines, the grouping of two pairs of three cylinders to feed either two turbos or a single split-pulse turbine housing is to be favoured.

However, unequal length runners are extremely widely used (few if any factory turbo cars have equal length runners in their cast manifolds) and some aftermarket tubular manifolds use branchings of unequal length runners. (Most of the latter are dubbed ‘pulse converter’ manifolds but whether the internal junctions conform to pulse converter geometries is not known.) Not one of the best known references is particularly critical of exhaust manifold designs which on a naturally aspirated engine would be seen as fatally flawed.
 

Texx

Super Moderator
That is a decade old mate. It's lasted at least 9 years more than the warranty period and you're saying it's not up to the job?

If you think that poor mani hasn't done it's duty you're being a little harsh. Just think of the heat cycles that thing has seen. It actually works out around a £1 for every month it's been on the car.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the manifold hasn't done it's duty, but what I'm trying to get at is not the fact it's cracked, but the fact of where it's cracked and why it's cracked indicating to me that limited testing was carried out on the manifold design before it was put into production. 55,000 miles isn't a great deal regardless of age, maybe Toyota would have carried out more in depth testing if the engine was destined for other markets apart from the JDM, but tbh, I doubt it.

My understanding of the rant the OP was having was that they get pissed off when Traders or other members say replace the stock manifold even when running stock or near stock boost levels as Toyota would have spent loads of time and money designing the stock manifold. Toyota may spend a couple of million pounds a day on R&D, but they wouldn't be spending that pissing around with a shitty cast manifold for a cheap turbocharged hatchback, that manifold would have been built to a budget and that budget wouldn't have included that much testing. Toyota would have left most of the testing to market data and recalled affected vehicles or modified the manifold on later vehicles if they deemed it necessary. Like I suggested, Toyota would have left it as a numbers game, if enough manifolds failed then they would have likely investigated the issue further, but if manifolds had failed and it was found that the vehicles had been fitted with aftermarket exhaust systems, modified intakes or increased boost levels, they would have washed their hands of it and said tough shit, warranty void.

If the restriction in No.3 runner creates enough back pressure to crack the manifold at that precise point, then there has to be a concern for No.3 cylinder to run lean when all of the waste exhaust gases cannot escape the combustion chamber before the exhaust valve closes. If you remove the stock intake and exhaust restrictions i.e. EFI pipe and stock CAT, the engine will flow more air, if it's flowing more air the back pressure in No.3 runner will increase, the increase in back pressure won't stay in the runner of the manifold it will back up into the combustion chamber and contaminate the proceeding intake charge resulting in a lesser burn from cylinder No.3 than from cylinders 1,2 and 4.

Yes, you can port and polish or whatever a stock manifold, but then it's no longer a stock manifold and not everyone has the tools, skills or interest to port out the restriction from the stock manifold. So my opinion based on what I've seen, is if you've a choice between a stock manifold and an aftermarket manifold with no restrictions in the runners regardless of turbo or boost pressure, I would choose the aftermarket manifold everytime. I would except a stress crack in a manifold from numerous heat cycles, but I don't think it's fair to accept a manifold that cracks purely because of a manufacturing imperfection that causes a flow restriction resulting in an excessive build up of heat and back pressure.
 
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ChrisGT

Member +
This thread makes me lol.

To the OP; what manifold do you suggest people who have Starlet's with different (bigger) turbos use? A stock manifold with adaptor plate? Or a custom made aftermarket one?
 

hardcoreep

Member +
I disagree about pulse tuning giving better turbo response, even with equal length manifolds unless you have spend hundreds of hours flow testing it then you are likely to experience reversion, and reflection of the pulses meaning its not actually pulse tuned at all!
And you somehow believe that they just make up manifolds how they feel like? There's a reason why Cruise used specific diameter runners. There's a reason why JAM and Ricoh racing spend time racing around Tsukuba circuit. Its called research and devlopment which is why a lot of JDM parts are so expensive. Also that extract laughs in the face of twin scroll turbochargers which use split housings to match the firing order for better response.
 

59bhp

Member +
Having done my university dissertation on this subject and spending the best part of 18 months researching it, as well as being a manufacturing engineer for one of the largest exhaust manufacturers on the planet, I know a little more than most.

Having not been bothered to read the whole thread there’s just a few things id like to add,

A stock manifold cannot flow as well as a well developed aftermarket item, this has been researched through million pound computer software and real world testing.. now thats a FACT!

all manifolds currently available crack, no exceptions, and yes I have witnessed every single manifold that is currently sold for the 4e and every single one cracks (traders don’t push me on this!)

80% of the above is caused by incorrect maintenance, poor material selection and the way the engine is situated! however there are a large amount of other factors that couldnt possibly be addressed in this post which also contribute.

also you cannot pulse tune a turbocharged engine as such, with wave reflection methods you can induce a sort of forced induction on N/A engines, however with a turbocharged engine the induction is about as forced as its going to get.

I can put up my dissertation is anyone is interested,
 

adi271087

Fresh Recruit
1 quick point. if u havto grind/ remove a part of somthing to get it to be as affective as something that already is, abviously its not as gud as the purpose biult item. with exceptions *cough ab88 cough*
 

TurboDave

Member +
Out of interest, what manifolds have you had that have cracked and where have they cracked? Have they cracked around a weld or actually through the manifold material?

I dont want to go naming and shaming but my latest one was a Killamats M/S one, which was bought by the person who owned my car last and i had done about 2000miles at most before it cracked around the back of the collector on the welds and then through the mild steel itself.

I wont be saying what other ones Ive had fail because I have been happy with the support I had when I reported them to the traders, however on this lastest occasion I was told it was probably a fake manifold although I have every trust in the person who originally bought it. I was told they would take a look at the £300 manifold if I paid the postage back and forth which I dont feel is an adequate response, needless to say I welded it up myself.
 

munday

Member +
Having done my university dissertation on this subject and spending the best part of 18 months researching it, as well as being a manufacturing engineer for one of the largest exhaust manufacturers on the planet, I know a little more than most.

Having not been bothered to read the whole thread there’s just a few things id like to add,

A stock manifold cannot flow as well as a well developed aftermarket item, this has been researched through million pound computer software and real world testing.. now thats a FACT!

all manifolds currently available crack, no exceptions, and yes I have witnessed every single manifold that is currently sold for the 4e and every single one cracks (traders don’t push me on this!)

80% of the above is caused by incorrect maintenance, poor material selection and the way the engine is situated! however there are a large amount of other factors that couldnt possibly be addressed in this post which also contribute.

also you cannot pulse tune a turbocharged engine as such, with wave reflection methods you can induce a sort of forced induction on N/A engines, however with a turbocharged engine the induction is about as forced as its going to get.

I can put up my dissertation is anyone is interested,

Totally agree, and ive heard about lots of cracked manifolds, the new designs too, but it never really gets talked about on the forums.

:drive:
 

Texx

Super Moderator
I think it would be a little narrow minded for anyone to be surprised that an aftermarket manifold made up of several individual parts welded together would crack, but these aftermarket manifolds will crack for different reasons than why the stock manifold will crack in the location it does.

Out of interest has anyone seen a JAM cast manifold crack? Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it shouldn't only interested as to whether a better flowing one piece cast manifold actually holds up any better than the stock cast manifold?

I can put up my dissertation is anyone is interested,

If you don't mind sharing your work, I for one would certainly be interested in reading it. :)
 
I can put up my dissertation is anyone is interested,

put it up.....i will read it in its entirety -100%

and i think i recall you collecting a lot of data from members on here about these products..including pics to assist with your write up

i can even give general comments on it if u like---i'm not in the area you are in, but some understanding can be gained from ANY well articulated document/material----which i believe yours will be, seeing its a dissertation :cool:

congrat by the way:rockon:

PS--just found them
http://www.toyotagtturbo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28707&highlight=manifold
http://www.toyotagtturbo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27354&highlight=manifold

those treads may interest members and jog some memories
 
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Gryzor

Admin
I think it would be a little narrow minded for anyone to be surprised that an aftermarket manifold made up of several individual parts welded together would crack, but these aftermarket manifolds will crack for different reasons than why the stock manifold will crack in the location it does.

Out of interest has anyone seen a JAM cast manifold crack? Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it shouldn't only interested as to whether a better flowing one piece cast manifold actually holds up any better than the stock cast manifold?



If you don't mind sharing your work, I for one would certainly be interested in reading it. :)

Yep, I've seen a Jam cast manifolds with a crack.
 
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