who runs aftermarket ecu's?

[Toby@ToyTuning.com]

Well ours isn't really comparable, I would say around £1000.00 - £1500.00 for the purchase of a unit fitted and mapped for a good stand alone, Motec, Link etc pending what your man can tune. Obviously there are units like the Power FC which would be around £800.00 - £1000.00 all in pending on the s/hand cost of the unit.

Pre-programmed unit would be around £400.00 say, dyno check say £600.00 all in and if it's not suitable and you want to play with it then you will need something like emanage as well with more dyno time, this would be near the cost of a stand alone here. Most members don't need to go this far, normal piggy of stock okay.

Other than that something like emanage, pfc f-con would set you back around £350.00, with dyno time maybe £500.00 - £600.00 all in. With most setups you will need to go back occasionally unless you happen to find a pre-programmed that's suitable from the word go, even then it can't perform miracles.

This is what I'm saying yes there are good units out there but people must not buy them thinking they will be the miracle they have been searching for, i.e you strap a T88 on there and bam the ECU sorts everything out and of you go it just doesnt work like this.

T

 

[Ted]

If you actually knew what was in the box (JAM/Mines etc) then fair play but I can't see how guess work is beneficial, you can't just throw one on and expect it to work after a few days. As Duncan has clearly shown the one he purchased really wasn't suitable as the base map was so far of what he needed. Yes you can alter the parameters with something like a Emanage, pfc f-con etc but unless you know what your actually buying then it's a risk full stop.

If you were in Japan then that would be a different story and yes they are bloody good units but if your not I just can't see the point. For the money your better of sticking with the stock ECU and a piggyback or if you plan to run a monster then stand alone is the way forward. Were running many sensors inc fuel temperature meaning she can adjust for different conditions thus you can drive where you want, either track or street..

T

toby you say that running an aftermarket is a risk but the facts dont back this up. most posts seem to point to the fact that blitz/jam/toms ecus run safer than optimum and would obviously run even more cautiously during set up.

not too many people are queueing up to say their car blew up using this blitz ecu or that toms unit. obviously it would pay to find out what turbo the thing was mappped for but that information can be got.

just my opinion of course. i did email jam to ask some questions about their ecu but no reply. if we knew more about how it worked it would be handy.

 

[Toby@ToyTuning.com]

That's the key if the info was there then fair play but it's quite simply not, you won't get a reply from JAM as they have no English speak staff, you need to use someone that speaks Japanese and they will tell you the same thing..

T

 

[Ted]

That's the key if the info was there then fair play but it's quite simply not, you won't get a reply from JAM as they have no English speak staff, you need to use someone that speaks Japanese and they will tell you the same thing..

T

ok will start japanese classes

 

[Toby@ToyTuning.com]

I'll join you

 

[Sharagath]

as i read this i can see 2 sides who are trowing arguments for there point(ECU)

as i look to the points
JAM/Mines etc
+cheap
+easy to fit
-made for a specific setup
-non adjustable

standalone
+could be used in every setup
+adjustable fuel/load/boost map
+extra nice options(datalogging,ALS,lauche controle ex.)
-expensive
-mostly a new wiring loom
-specialist needed for mapping
- new sensoren needed sometimes

as i look to my future standalone with these qusetions in mind;
- how much did your unit cost (the retail price in case u got a freebee or business/friend discount?
- how long did it take to install and wire in?
- how much did all the extra sensors cost? (approximate retail prices)
- how much time was spent by the tuner---initially setting up the maps, etc
- how much would/did it cost to tune your set up (retail price in case u got a freebee or business/friend discount)?
- how many times did u have o go back to have the maps fine tuned?

i have to drop my car at the tuner for 14days
they have to make a new wiring loom and a Trigger wheel
will work with almost all sensors, only a new 3bar map sensor
the car will be tuned on the road(not on de rollers)
total costs €3000,- complete
as fas as i can get back
ECU MD35...................€1050,-
UEGO DISPLAY..............€500,-
Map-sensor 400 kPa......€120,-
Idle-control kit...............€60,-
Wiring loom 4 cylinder...€350,-
total in ECU parts.........€2080,-
that leaves €920,- for 10days of work

 

[Timmy]

as i read this i can see 2 sides who are trowing arguments for there point(ECU)

as i look to the points
JAM/Mines etc
+cheap
+easy to fit
-made for a specific setup
-non adjustable

Made for a specific setup is not always a bad thing. I would say 95% are for ct9's and allow for adjustment to run pretty much any set up aslong as it's a ct9.

 

[Sharagath]

Made for a specific setup is not always a bad thing. I would say 95% are for ct9's and allow for adjustment to run pretty much any set up aslong as it's a ct9.

not always indeed but it could kill your engine if you forget that or didn't know
but also a bad mapped stand alone could.

it is more a side note that a bad thing

 

[Timmy]

If you were unlucky enough to pick one up which is mapped for the wrong turbo set up. As normal the seller will know what turbo it is for. It will more than likely run really bad you will probably relise before anything major happens. It's not like it will run lean at high revs it will just be all over the place.

 

[Guye]

I wouldn't risk my engine in all honesty as it "self learns", I would rather know where I stand. The main people for "self learning" are the ones who own them..

The ECU will fuel trim and try to maintain programed AFR but you CANNOT replace a good base map. They are too slow to react, I would not risk my engine on any ECU "self learning", this whole statement of "self learning" has really been mis-understood. The biggest constraint seems to be money as stand alones, good ones, are not cheap but I still woulnd't risk it. Maybe okay for a wee CT9 but at are level it's just not suitable, our mapper would literally laugh if we came down saying he didn't need to do anything the ECU will "self learn"
__________________


OMG! If you had said that when I was considering buying my JAM ecu from you I would have left it alone!

Having said that this thread has show the merits of all ecu options. If I was building a demo car like Toby, I doubt that I would risk the engine with a JAM, MINES, BLITZ etc. unit as well. But the fact is that I am building a 200-220hp everyday driver GT starlet. No one can say that my engine is at risk because I am using a JAM ecu based on the results others have seen with similar units. I would have also though the argument of "it's mapped for one setup it's no good for another" would be over as well. Even I have noticed that when settings are changed on the car the ecu conpensated for the changes and the car runs great. On an uber expensive demo car, the adjustments would be too slow. IMO for anyone running 250-300+bhp where reliabilty is a major concern, by all means get an excellent tuner, pay your money and ensure your setting suit your needs (although the Jamacians seem to get more on stock internals and preprogrammed ecus). But please, I would like to see the thread stay as merits/demerits, pros & cons of ALL options, insted of belittling of units many here are using happily with good results and no blown engines.

 

[Toby@ToyTuning.com]

Cheeky bugger

I'm not saying there crap just not suitable sometimes, if you had told me you wanted a ECU to support 300bhp I would have said otherwise. I also wasn't aware of the issues people were having at the time as there were not many around. Like you mention they can be fine for most but even if you have limited mods you still won't know what your buying.

T

 

[Guye]

Cheeky bugger

I'm not saying there crap just not suitable sometimes, if you had told me you wanted a ECU to support 300bhp I would have said otherwise. I also wasn't aware of the issues people were having at the time as there were not many around. Like you mention they can be fine for most but even if you have limited mods you still won't know what your buying.

T

No prob Toby I got a good deal when you sold me the unit and I have been one of the lucky ones you mentioned. It's as good as you told me they could be, I am 100% satified with my unit. I think you were also aware of the tuning situation in Barbados when I asked you to find one aswell. There are emanage ultimate users here, but because of bad settings the units are more being fiddled with than setup. Preprogrammed do have a place. To be fair, if I had your demo car it would have to be a fully mappable standalone as well.

 

[HYBRID]

OK i think iv read about enough to tell u about my experiances..

So i was running a jam ecu.. this jam ecu, i know for a fact was tuned for a ct9, fuel cut was completely removed, rpm limiter was set to 8600rpms, was meant to work with stock 4e injectors, pump & fpr.. BUT we did some homework & got away with a few things...

The jam was set as above to run on 100RON which here is blasphamey.. we get 86ron @ best.. but the jam was meant to run on a cr of 8.2:1.. so we calculated that with my cr rating ie of 7.34:1 using 86ron it would be almost identical to running stock cr & 100RON... Basically i dunno if some of u know, but using low comp pistons u reduce the stress on the engine dramatticaly, sure u need to use more boost to get results & off boost its more lazy BUT, i can use the same settings a guy running higher cr can on higher fuel as ill have waaaaaay less DET cause of the cr...

basically i had the following:

MHI td04L + the works lol running 1.7Bar
as for fuelling we used 318cc inectors, a 7m fuel pump & the rrfpr @ 3bar..

The readings where as follows:

on idle between 14 ~ 17AF
3000 rpms (2psi running) 13.2AF
4500 rpms ( running 1.55bar) 12.6AF
7500 rpms ( running 1.7 bar) 11.8AF
(had to stop there as i have stock rods)

Max EGT @ 7500rpms was 760deg celcius..

Seems like the jam was doing pretty well even though it was set for a ct9 running 1.2bar..

Basically what a few of us blockheads here summed up as (gorganl2000 said earlier) that the jam works on something similar to an AF target system.. if u add the correct ingrediants then u could take it with the settings it has to a much higher state of tuning..

Of course its no standalone, but if it kept up with that im curious to see how it will keep up with the next few steps i have planned.. which are a bigger turbo, new plenum & some lovely headwork & fhe cams.. should prove pretty interesting im sure..


Kon

 

[Guye]

You really did your homework to find out the setup your JAM ecu was done for HYBRID. I basically put mine in with a "Can't be any worst than stock" attitude, but was extremely happy with the difference it made. That kick after 5000rpm is like a second turbo, I love it! But after reading the info in this thread I am giving the preprogammed units far more respect than I previously did, although I own one.

 

[Toyota T23]

thank u very much Gee for your cost outline and toby for your info

i just want to give people a full view of things ---performance and cost wise...so they can choose accordingly.........i'm trying to get unbiased info for that purpose

yeah gee...with the PFC...its direct plug and play/tune......so one could save a little using this type of standalone set up (microtech would be similar in this case)

would like some1 with a FULL standalone (needing wiring, installation, tuning, etc) to comment on cost structure for the benefit of the forum........toby/anyone??!?! lol

again...these only need to be approximate costs........and who would be better able to approximate than someone's whose done it...lol

Like i posted before, i run a standalone megasquirt ECU, with all the fun stuff, like shiftlight, flatshift, antilag, traction control, nos control, in short, all the fun stuff.
Complete instalition(plug and play) with tuning, is around 510 pounds here in DK.Megasquirt is used on very high powered engines here in DK.

 

[HYBRID]

Yeah newguye, i agree fully.. they are something else.. what ur feeling infact is the increase in timing over stock.. its amazing what some extra timing can do

there are however some bad points about the pre-programmed units which i havent see anybody metion:

1.) Cant run any form of anti-lag, so technically ur limited to the engine's capabilities
2.) Cant run hi lift cams due to the fact they have no idle control
3.) Cant run a dry shot of NOS either as the unit cant respond to such a drammatic change..
4.) No launch control feature.. unless u get a aftermarket unit..
5.) In the end u cant run over 380cc's as the units rarely have a map to compare that size of injectors to, so ull end up getting a piggyback of sorts to adjust that..

its true not everybody would need the above requirements, but to us here its a very simple situation as most of us love the bigger side of things..

kon

 

[Guye]

Yeah newguye, i agree fully.. they are something else.. what ur feeling infact is the increase in timing over stock.. its amazing what some extra timing can do

there are however some bad points about the pre-programmed units which i havent see anybody metion:

1.) Cant run any form of anti-lag, so technically ur limited to the engine's capabilities
2.) Cant run hi lift cams due to the fact they have no idle control
3.) Cant run a dry shot of NOS either as the unit cant respond to such a drammatic change..
4.) No launch control feature.. unless u get a aftermarket unit..
5.) In the end u cant run over 380cc's as the units rarely have a map to compare that size of injectors to, so ull end up getting a piggyback of sorts to adjust that..

its true not everybody would need the above requirements, but to us here its a very simple situation as most of us love the bigger side of things..

kon

That's the kind of merit/demerit stuff I want to see! Anyone reading this info can reliably decide based on their tuning goals what their options really look like. I wasn't aware of the stuff above either (luckily I would never need any of that). Well done, keep it coming people.

 

[riko666]

In my honest opinion, features like anti-lag, traction control etc...are just not worth anything, it's for the show-off's that want all the bells & whistles. A true driver would make do without - if I were to get a fully standalone ECU it would to make use of the fine tuning capabilities just not available in a pre-programmed ECU, I don't need to show off completely useless features.

Anti-lag? Learn to change gear properly and keep the turbo on-boost when downshifting. Tractional control? Here's a clue - left foot on the clutch, right foot on throttle, find a happy medium - same with Launch control. I haven't felt the advantages of my pre-programmed ECU but to be fair, my aims aren't that lofty, but I know for a fact my ECU is tuned for "close" to what I shall be doing, I track a lot (when the bloody car works) and I know the ECU will be able to deal with that and with normal street driving...Safe in the fact that I had no mapper input wrong details into my ECU to screw my car up, and with my lack of money, that wouldn't even be funny

 

[Gee]

I'm sure a 1000hp Supra would find good use of traction control

And anti lag...well go tell them rally drivers to 'learn' to drive properly.

 

[dac69er]

i think what riko is getting at is that on a road car (which most of the cars on here are) dont need all the bells and whistles. one of my mates has an ecu with lauch control etc etc and he finds it a pint int he arse really. its a gimmick, fine for a while but the fun soon wears off.