40bhp loss through drive train, 204 at the fly and 163 at the wheels???

superspat

Member +
got my car all dynod and set up, running good but i have a loss of just of 40bhp from the fly to the wheels, am i rite in thinking this is quite alot to loss, its running 204 at the the fly and 163 at the wheels, is this down to the clutch starting to let go? i dont think its slipping on the road and looked ok on the dyno print outs:confused:
what have other people loss through the drive train??
 

Nick@TD.co.uk

Registered Trader <a href="http://www.TuningD
Its generally around 16% which would read 194bhp @ the flywheel for yours.

Cheers

Mike Jones
Tuning Developments Ltd
 

Gryzor

Admin
the bhp between the wheel and flywheel is calculated by a formula, I cant remember the formula but a quick google will find it.

ah I'm too slow.
 

superspat

Member +
thats what i thought, what could be the cause of the big loss through the drive train?
am i rite in thinking the clutch cant handle it and is starting to slip slightly, but not bad enough to notice when driving
 

Gryzor

Admin
Drivetrains cannot be perfectly efficient and pass 100% of the power of the engine through its components to the wheels. Some of the power is lost for several reasons. Generally 15-25% of engine power never makes it to the wheels. Different types of drivetrains will have different levels of efficiency. Generally, drivetrains with more weight and those with more components will be less efficient.
 

superspat

Member +
yea preassure were all chekced before it went on rollers.
will get back to you about the mot mate, mite have some 1 just down the road that can do it for me, but will let you once i have spoke to him
 

Gryzor

Admin
Horsepower and Torque: A Practical Explanation

This may be the most highly debated question in all automotive internet forums. It's not that the definitions are in doubt. They're obviously objective. The controversy centers around which is more important.

Force

Force is the pressure of one mass against another, and is one of the primary units in all of physics. In the metric system, force is calculated in "Newtons". Gravity is an easy example of a natural force and is written in the English system as "pounds". So we also use pounds as the basic unit of force.

Work

Work is defined as force over distance and is calculated as Work= Force * Distance. In other words, work is achieved when force causes an object to move. The force placed on the object and the distance it moves are calculated as the work done.

Power

Power was originally defined by the engineer James Watt as the amount of work that can be done in a certain amount of time. So its function is Power = Work / Time.

Torque

Torque is defined as the force at any one point on the edge of a circle in the exact direction of the rotation multiplied by the radius (distance from the center). This comes from the calculus/geometry concept of a "tangent", a line which touches exactly one point of the edge of a circle.

tangent.jpg


In the metric system, force is calculated in newtons, and distance is in meters, so the standard torque unit is Newton-Meters or N-M. In the Standard/English system, force is calculated in pounds and distance in feet. So the torque unit is lb-ft, usually pronounced as "Foot-pounds" and sometimes written as "ft/lb".

Horsepower


Horsepower is a unit of power. It can be defined in many ways. In its basic sense, it's defined as work done in a straight line as described above under "Power". But when the work is not done in a straight line, it must be defined in a different way: torque.

Horsepower = Torque X RPM
5252

Now although horsepower in this instance is defined by rotational forces, it is no different than straight-line horsepower. For instance, if you wrapped a rope around the circle and allowed the torque to pull the rope, the force on the rope would now be exactly as defined above.

Gearing and Towing


Now when it comes to just about any type of racing known to mankind, besides engine output, gearing is the single most contributor to acceleration. It will make or break any car and the right gear selection can and will mean the difference between winning and losing a race.

How important is gearing? Gearing nearly makes torque obsolete. Yes, it's that important. In a perfect environment with no limiting factors such as size and weight, the actual peak torque output of an engine would be totally meaningless because of gearing.

How's that possible? It's simple. Gearing multiplies peak torque to the wheels to any amount desired. Increasing the ratio increases torque.

The limiting factors are the biggest problem with this ideal setup. Torque is multiplied through gear ratios, but the higher the gear ratio, the larger the gear and the more space it takes up. Unfortunately, in the real world, there's only so much space for a gear to occupy. It's this space limit that contributes to the "torque = towing capacity" philosophy. If space were unlimited and we could make the ratios anything we wanted, then towing capacity would be limitless since we could easily just utilize a higher ratio gear.

But since the car world doesn't operate like that, there is generally a maximum amount of torque that can be generated at the wheels. It's this maximum which defines the towing capacity of the vehicle. If you start with an engine that already generates a great deal of torque, then the towing capacity will be easier to manipulate to higher levels.

Horsepower and Torque "At the Wheels"

Now when we're talking about automobiles, the amount of horsepower or torque generated at the flywheel is not very useful when determining acceleration. What is useful, however, is horsepower and torque "at the wheels". The problem here is that drivetrains cannot be perfectly efficient and pass 100% of the power of the engine through its components to the wheels. Some of the power is lost for several reasons. Generally 15-25% of engine power never makes it to the wheels. Different types of drivetrains will have different levels of efficiency. Generally, drivetrains with more weight and those with more components will be less efficient.

Let's use my own car for some sample calculations. In stock form, it has 165 hp @ 5600 RPM and 166 lb-ft @ 4000 RPM.

Dyno results have shown that the car has around 127 peak hp at the wheels. That's a 23.03% loss. Note that this is higher than most cars because of the heavy and sophisticated all-wheel-drive system.

Here's a chart to show how the power and torque change before they reach the wheels. Although, the efficiency loss is difference for each gear, we'll assume that 127 peak hp is attainable in every gear. At 5600 RPM, the flywheel torque calculates as 154.7 lb-ft. Calculating the same efficiency loss (23.03%) as horsepower, this would come out to 119.1 lb-ft.

Engine RPM = 5600
Gear Gear Ratio Axle Ratio Total Ratio Flywheel Horsepower Wheel Horsepower Flywheel Torque Wheel Torque after loss
1 3.545 4.11 14.57 165 127 154.7 1735
2 2.110 4.11 8.67 165 127 154.7 1033
3 1.448 4.11 5.95 165 127 154.7 707
4 1.088 4.11 4.47 165 127 154.7 532
5 0.780 4.11 3.21 165 127 154.7 382

To prove the accuracy of the wheel torque numbers, let's look at the example of 1st gear. Using the Speed/RPM Calculator, we can determine that the vehicle will be traveling at approximately 27.5 mph in 1st gear at 5600 RPM. Using the Tire Size Calculator, we can determine that the circumference of the tire is approximately 78.16 inches. Let's calculate the RPM of the tire:

27.5 mph = 145,200 ft/hour
145,200 ft/hour = 1,742,400 in/hour
1,742,400 in/hour = 22,294 revs/hour
22,294 revs/hour = 372 RPM

Now we know that there is 127 hp generated at the wheels. If we use the horsepower formula above:

127 HP = (Torque * 372 RPM) / 5252
667,004 = Torque * 372
Torque = 1793 lb-ft

Notice the difference between 1793 and 1735. This is caused by the reduction of the tire's size when fitted onto the vehicle. To help explain this, please read "Why isn't it perfectly accurate?"

Reference
 

spuddy

Ulster Area Rep.
Tyre pressure will count when on the run down when the dyno is calculating your losses for the WHP reading. If you turning a flat wheel it takes more energy than a pumped up wheel.

Also if your wheel alignment is up the left it will also cause more losses.

There's always the chance the dyno is wrong. What all work is done to the car in terms of engine mods?
 

superspat

Member +
the dyno is spot on, i know the guys and its gets serviced when it needs its, if any thing it read less power than most, and runthe cars under full load when doing the runs.
internaly the engien is standard, just bolt on's really
wepr ct9 power up kit
ct9 hybrid
rrfpr
jam fcd
apexi safc,
had full service before it wnet in, up rated leads and gapped plugs, oil and filters and ran on 99 super unleaded

Gyrzor that just fried my brain, but makes sence,
still tho compared to most peoples power reading that lose around 20bhp through the drive train
 

AdamB

Member +
Horsepower and Torque: A Practical Explanation


Force

Force is the pressure of one mass against another, and is one of the primary units in all of physics. In the metric system, force is calculated in "Newtons". Gravity is an easy example of a natural force and is written in the English system as "pounds". So we also use pounds as the basic unit of force.

Wrong, we don't use Pounds here in England, or infact Europe. We use the SI units, and pounds is denoted as a Mass, in SI units mass is KG's.
The only country to now follow the SI units is America.

And of course the tyre pressure makes a difference, have you ever tried to push a car with a deflated tyre? You have to put twice as much energy in to overcome inertia resistance, and still carry on using twice the amount of energy once inertia is overcome.
 

Gryzor

Admin
Wrong, we don't use Pounds here in England, or infact Europe. We use the SI units, and pounds is denoted as a Mass, in SI units mass is KG's.
The only country to now follow the SI units is America.

And of course the tyre pressure makes a difference, have you ever tried to push a car with a deflated tyre? You have to put twice as much energy in to overcome inertia resistance, and still carry on using twice the amount of energy once inertia is overcome.

tyre pressure does not make any difference to the drivetrain efficiency.
 

GTdan

In The Closet
whaty dyno was it and what mode was it ran in, different modes will result in different calculations - ie 4wd have a 40% (around that figure), and the calculation will be a percentage, not always 20bhp difference - it will be a percentage, and every dyno manufacturer works it out differently.
 

Murray

Member +
You cannot put a percentage on dyno losses, End of story. There are way to many variables.
The only number thats important is the wheel horsepower reading not the calculated flywheel.
Tyres do make a difference on the dyno as they are in contact with the roller, as AdamB states how hard is it to push a car with flat tyres?
Sticky brakes, duff bearings (wheel or gearbox) can all have a knock on effect to the dyno calculations.

Superspat, on the road does the car go better than before?
 

Gryzor

Admin
the tyre pressure would not effect the drivetrain efficiency :slap:

You cannot put a percentage on dyno losses, End of story. There are way to many variables.
The only number thats important is the wheel horsepower reading not the calculated flywheel.
Tyres do make a difference on the dyno as they are in contact with the roller, as AdamB states how hard is it to push a car with flat tyres?
Sticky brakes, duff bearings (wheel or gearbox) can all have a knock on effect to the dyno calculations.

Superspat, on the road does the car go better than before?


yep, tyre pressure does affect the dyno result.
 

superspat

Member +
yea it dose but its going to when upping the boost from 0.8 bar to 1bar its going to, i have used the same dyno on most of my cars, tyre preassure was 32psi on 195/50 15 uniroyal rain sports 2
the dyno was a

gt dyno tuning
sportdyno v3.3
dyno meter SD325
roller interia 9.5

if that makes any sence to any 1 that knows any thing about diffrent dynos
 

Texx

Super Moderator
got my car all dynod and set up, running good but i have a loss of just of 40bhp from the fly to the wheels, am i rite in thinking this is quite alot to loss

The flywheel power wasn't measured, so there's no way anyone can say exactly how much power is being lost through the drivetrain. The 40hp stated is nothing more than a guestimate.

If you were told there was a loss of 15hp through the drivetrain making the flywheel power 178hp, would that make you happier?
 

superspat

Member +
If you were told there was a loss of 15hp through the drivetrain making the flywheel power 178hp, would that make you happier?[/QUOTE]


yea it would as its more relistic? clutch actualy started slipping last night properly. for some reason i thoguth the power was meassured at the fly then the wheels was a gestamate but thinking about thats not possible,massive dumb moment for me.
but coming back to orginal question a hyrbid should be maing more than 164at the wheels really should it not? on my previous gts have and they been on a ghetto cheap ebay set up set, gonna get a new clutch in there they get it bk to the dyno to see if made any diffrence
 
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