Under piston oil jets, anyone used them?

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AdamB

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Anyone tried using under piston oil jets/squirters to cool the pistons on an E series engine?

Any pro's and con's to using them?

I've heard they are supposed to supress knock cooling the piston after the exhaust stroke, ready for the fresh intake charge.
A lot of the vauxhall boys use them, and they come on a lot of new cars as standard, so they must do something good.
Heres the way the vauxhall lads do it... http://www.vauxhall-sport-forum.com/phpBB2/installing-under-piston-oil-squirters-t265.html

Although it can be done where you have a feed to all 4 jets plumbed in from a main feed.

Any pics are welcome :)
 
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H_D

H_D

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I think this can cause oil pressure issues if fitted to our little motors but it is possible
 
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A

AdamB

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Cheeky ;) I'll take that as a yes. You put them in the main bearings or with a main feed in the block?
 
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AdamB

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I did think they might cause oil pressure problems, or a drop in oil pressure, and with these engines prone to oil problems at the bottom end it not a good recipe.

Don't think theres much room to drill into the block to have a main feed with these little motors, anything is possible though.

Edit...
Just read that the ones the vauxhall lads use drilled into the main bearings use a spring loaded ball bearing where if oil pressure drops then they are shut off. Effectively they are only open under engine loading, so they must require a certain amount of pressure to open up the spring to allow oil to squirt out.

Starting to sound fairly good now.
 
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AdamB

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Thanks for that Ted, I did wonder if the 3s engine had them since its probably the most similar engine to the E series, but have never seen a 3s so couldn't be too sure. Do you know if they were drilled into the main bearings or if they had a block feed?
 
00Joeindastarbo

00Joeindastarbo

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Would obviously help keep things a bit cooler allowing for a more volatile mixture to be run while maintaining reliability the evo 4G63 Blocks run them but they aren't really needed unless you're really looking to push the envelope (Spuddy ECC)
 
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AdamB

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I wouldn't say they are not needed, as they do have their uses, reducing the temps of the fresh intake charge can lead to more boost and ignition being added to the map, especially useful when your turbo is outside its efficiency range.
Every little helps, just trying to figure out how much they help, is it worth going through all the machining to get them to fit.
 
00Joeindastarbo

00Joeindastarbo

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I meant not needed as everyone seems to be managing ok making the numbers at the moment but if you've got money to burn why not there will alway be improvements possible with enough R&D
 
venomconcepts

venomconcepts

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Hey mate i think on a moded engine they will help a lot (the more cool the engine runs the more boost you can add)
as for the oil pressure you can modify the relive valve so that you can add more oil pressure
pls let me know how this ends
 
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AdamB

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I agree most peoples setups run fine, i'm looking to run near on 400bhp with a 5e and a gtx28 turbo, which is very different to the usual td04 setups. Will be 2 bar on the odd occasion and 1.6 bar for the weekend cruise. And I know that 2 bar is pushing its limits on this turbo, so trying to keep the intake charge as cool as possible really. I don't want to go for a bigger turbo either as I don't want the lag, trying to build a good street machine with a big punch.

Venom, I was going to mod the oil pressure relief valve, but obviously too much oil pressure is not a good thing either. I'm trying to find out at what pressure the spring pressure is overcome then I can figure out if I need to mod the pressure relief valve.

It doesn't seem like much to get them to work, the only doubting part is that the vauxhall oil jets in the main bearings are designed to be an interference fit, obviously this is critical as I don't want to be destroying a sought after an expensive 5e.
 
00Joeindastarbo

00Joeindastarbo

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Looking at the vauxhal link, drawing the feed from the Main journal would not be my choice if you could accurately establish the architecture of the oil galleries, taping into them would be a far better source, look into the evo feeds as they are situated between the cylinders and are bolted in place.
Your suggested setup will be impressive what A/R will the GTX28 be? i take it you looked in to other methods of calling the charge my friend ran a 350+GT street car which used gas and was a lot of fun.
 
rage

rage

Lifer
saw this on an bmw m3 build and also thought it might be an idea for the 4e/5e engines.

been thinking about the loss of oil pressure, isn't it an idea to use the regular oil pressure valve in the bottom end and use the exces oil that it squirts out for the piston jets? should only work when the engine is under load and when you need to cool the pistons the most?

or am i missing a critical point? :)
 
A

AdamB

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00Joeindastarbo said:
Looking at the vauxhal link, drawing the feed from the Main journal would not be my choice if you could accurately establish the architecture of the oil galleries, taping into them would be a far better source, look into the evo feeds as they are situated between the cylinders and are bolted in place.
Your suggested setup will be impressive what A/R will the GTX28 be? i take it you looked in to other methods of calling the charge my friend ran a 350+GT street car which used gas and was a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

I do agree mate, it would probably be a much better way of doing it, but I'm not sure if there is enough room to route the oil jets, plus it would have to be carefully designed so that the jets don't hit the piston skirt at the bottom of its stroke.
I also don't fancy ruining a 5e block which I spent a long time searching for if tapping into the block doesn't work :(
It will be a stainless steel Tial V-band .63 turbine housing ;)
As for other methods of cooling, I did look into water injection, but if I went that route I wouldn't want to run water as one water is not compressible and two it can make the cylinders rusty unless the precise amount of water is injected. If I was going to run it I would want to run Toluol which is great for supressing knock.

I think I will go ahead with it, its just a case of which method to use...
Still not sure on the oil pressure drop, it will certainly take oil away from the main bearings thats for sure, and since the E series engine suffers from bottom end bearing problems anyway I wouldn't want to make things worse.
From what i've seen a lot of these oil jets act very much the same as a pressure relief valve, with the spring loaded ball action where they are released once spring tension is overcome.

Thanks for the ideas lads, keep them coming :)
 
rage

rage

Lifer
what if... you mount a seperate pump on the sump? so the regular oil circuit stays the same and a seperate pump supplies oil for the jets?
might be wise to add a second pressure gauge to check how well it works but that might do the trick? simple electric pump or a seperate belt driven pump on the power steering or arcon point?
 
S

Skalabala

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A series 3,4,5 has oilers. Cant see any use for it on a E series as you can take it to 400hp without the oilers.
But great topic!!
 
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AdamB

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rage said:
what if... you mount a seperate pump on the sump? so the regular oil circuit stays the same and a seperate pump supplies oil for the jets?
might be wise to add a second pressure gauge to check how well it works but that might do the trick? simple electric pump or a seperate belt driven pump on the power steering or arcon point?
Click to expand...

Good thinking! Although that is a lot of hassle to go through and would certainly increase the cost.
I was thinking of going to a dry sump system, but waiting for the ECC kit, probably be waiting a long time though :haha: If I was to run a dry sump kit it would pretty much eliminate oil pressure problems completely so it wouldn't be such a worry.

@Skalabala, I understand a lot of people have run big numbers without these jets, but I have never seen anyone ask about them or in anyones build. For the sake of drilling 4 holes why hasn't it been done before?

I have contacted an engineering company about this and shall see what they say :)
 
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AdamB

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lol easier said than done my friend.
Would cost a hell of a lot more to get to 500bhp.
Plus I would have to change my turbo setup which i've just ordered, so would be a waste really. My aim was to have a good useable street machine, think i'll stick with this turbo setup for now and if I get bored may try something out the blue :)
 
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