Modding engine but standard boost, Fuel cut, etc?

[A L 3 X]

I'm still finding all this fuel cut stuff confusing.

Basically I've decided for now that I'd like to do a few mods, air filter, exhaust system, FMIC, maybe relocate the filter, and a decat to the exhaust.

What i understand is the filter relocation and decat will cause boost creep, but what about the others?
If say I was to add all this I would probably boost creep into fuel cut, so would need an FCD or similar, but would I require an FPR/RRFPR because i'm still retaining the stock boost level at this time?

Also, would all these mods be best fitted at once because I can't afford to buy them all at once but get inpatient lol.

Cheers

 

[Texx]

If your hitting fuel cut then your no longer running stock boost pressure. A FCD trims the boost pressure signal so the ECU does not read the increase in boost pressure and so fuel cut is avoided. Because the ECU is no longer reading the increase in boost pressure, there's a good possibility it will not inject the additional fuel required to maintain a safe air/fuel ratio. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is used to increase the base fuel pressure at the injectors so more fuel is injected during each fuel injector pulse, this compensates for the ECU's less than true boost pressure reading.

When using a FCD to avoid fuel cut, if you do not install an adjustable FPR and also have it setup by someone who has the experience and equipment to do so, then there is a good chance your engine will fail in the not too distant future. If you cannot afford to buy both a FCD and FPR, then you'll certainly not be able to afford an engine rebuild. The best advice I can give you is to control boost with your right foot whilst you save up some money.

 

[mork]

And get a decent, accurate boost gauge too, that way you'll know how much boost your running, so you can help prevent fuel cut.

 

[mad_max926]

in my opinion mate try and find a p&p ecu like blitz jam sard etc. It removes fuel cut and speed limiter and when ever you fit a new part the ecu sort of trims/adjusts to it. I have a jam ecu mate and i cant fault it the tuners i take the car to think it pretty good 2. Do some research into them, expect to pay £450 -£500 for one though.

 

[A L 3 X]

If your hitting fuel cut then your no longer running stock boost pressure. A FCD trims the boost pressure signal so the ECU does not read the increase in boost pressure and so fuel cut is avoided. Because the ECU is no longer reading the increase in boost pressure, there's a good possibility it will not inject the additional fuel required to maintain a safe air/fuel ratio. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is used to increase the base fuel pressure at the injectors so more fuel is injected during each fuel injector pulse, this compensates for the ECU's less than true boost pressure reading.

When using a FCD to avoid fuel cut, if you do not install an adjustable FPR and also have it setup by someone who has the experience and equipment to do so, then there is a good chance your engine will fail in the not too distant future. If you cannot afford to buy both a FCD and FPR, then you'll certainly not be able to afford an engine rebuild. The best advice I can give you is to control boost with your right foot whilst you save up some money.

I'm not hitting fuel cut as yet as I havent fitted those mods, and I didn't mean I can't afford to buy both an fcd and fpr, I meant I cant afford to buy exhaust, fmic, filter, decat, filter relocation, fcd, and fpr all in one go, so could I fit the fmic, exhaust, etc first...then save up for the things which will cause the creeping and fit them all in with an fcd and fpr?

I just wasn't sure if the fpr was needed if i wasn't physically turning the boost up.
Would i be better to port the mani and wastegate as well to help cure boost creep? As i understand it boost creep isn't achieving true boost and isn't boosting uniformly,or am i wrong?

Mork, i've just got what I assume is a pretty crappy swoosh one atm, should I invest in a better one and if so which do you recommend?(I would like it to look nice and modern also.)

in my opinion mate try and find a p&p ecu like blitz jam sard etc. It removes fuel cut and speed limiter and when ever you fit a new part the ecu sort of trims/adjusts to it. I have a jam ecu mate and i cant fault it the tuners i take the car to think it pretty good 2. Do some research into them, expect to pay £450 -£500 for one though.

I've heard bad things about these but i suppose if i was to fit one then get it checked by a tuner?

 

[Texx]

I just wasn't sure if the fpr was needed if i wasn't physically turning the boost up.
Would i be better to port the mani and wastegate as well to help cure boost creep? As i understand it boost creep isn't achieving true boost and isn't boosting uniformly,or am i wrong?

Boost creep is in effect 'turning the boost up' but in a uncontrollable way. Unfortunately due to the design of the CT9, boost creep will always be a problem when using the internal wastegate to control boost. The crappy restrictive stock air intake and exhaust system serve a purpose by limiting the volume of air that flows in and out of the engine, which in turn prevents boost creep occurring. When you start to upgrade the intake and exhaust systems boost creep becomes a problem, that problem being fuel cut.

To put it simple, if you upgrade the intake and exhaust systems you will see an increase in boost pressure, whether you want it or not. If the increase in boost pressure is enough for the ECU to cut fuel, then the bear minimum you'll need to install is a FCD and adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Then you need to identify at what pressure your turbo stops creeping to, if it's close to 1bar then you'll need to think about replacing or porting the stock exhaust manifold (if your still using one) and also upgrading the intercooler.

Be warned, these cars are a slippery slope. There's no enjoying just a few upgrades, once you upgrade one thing another becomes a problem.

 

[A L 3 X]

Boost creep is in effect 'turning the boost up' but in a uncontrollable way. Unfortunately due to the design of the CT9, boost creep will always be a problem when using the internal wastegate to control boost. The crappy restrictive stock air intake and exhaust system serve a purpose by limiting the volume of air that flows in and out of the engine, which in turn prevents boost creep occurring. When you start to upgrade the intake and exhaust systems boost creep becomes a problem, that problem being fuel cut.

To put it simple, if you upgrade the intake and exhaust systems you will see an increase in boost pressure, whether you want it or not. If the increase in boost pressure is enough for the ECU to cut fuel, then the bear minimum you'll need to install is a FCD and adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Then you need to identify at what pressure your turbo stops creeping to, if it's close to 1bar then you'll need to think about replacing or porting the stock exhaust manifold (if your still using one) and also upgrading the intercooler.

Be warned, these cars are a slippery slope. There's no enjoying just a few upgrades, once you upgrade one thing another becomes a problem.

Ah I see, god what a complicated car to mod lol, hmm, would I be able to add an exhaust system from the cat for some noise and looks and an FMIc for now then without affecting things too much? And forget about the relocated intake and decat etc for now?

 

[Texx]

would I be able to add an exhaust system from the cat for some noise and looks and an FMIc for now then without affecting things too much? And forget about the relocated intake and decat etc for now?

It's not definitive, but yes if you retain the stock intake and cat there's a good chance you won't experience any boost creep and fuel cut issues.

 

[A L 3 X]

Ah right I see, I might do that for now then lol. So say if i was to raise boost to under the fuel cut limit, or if my car was to boost creep but not to fuel cut, is this still running a safe a/f ratio, like will the ecu adjust it if its under fuel cut or will it be running dangerously lean?

Sorry for being a pain but its really quite confusing to grasp the concept as i'm used to NA cars.

I was also reading this:
http://www.ukstarletclub.com/forums/index.php?autocom=tutorials&article=5

Which the stage 1 mods explains you can do somuch without the mention of an fcd or rrfpr, but I cant see me being able to add the following:
FMIC or ARC TMIC
Exhaust system
Decat
HKS actuator running 12psi
manifold
Air filter(but not relocated)
Ported wastegate

without this spiking to fuel cut?
Finally, does an uprated or ported mani help remove or cause boost creep?

I think in the long run I will aim to buy the following mods and then apply the ones which will affect boost/fuelling all at once:
First buy seperately and fit as and when:
Exhaust system
Air filter
FMIC
port wastegate

Then buy and fit all at once: plug and play ECU, decat, set actuator to 1 bar, relocate filter, manifold
Would this be a decent route to go down? And with the pnp ecu do you need an uprated fuel pressure reg and fuel pump?

Cheers for the info.

 

[Texx]

Ah right I see, I might do that for now then lol. So say if i was to raise boost to under the fuel cut limit, or if my car was to boost creep but not to fuel cut, is this still running a safe a/f ratio, like will the ecu adjust it if its under fuel cut or will it be running dangerously lean?

Not experiencing fuel cut without a FCD installed is a good place to be, it means your engine is boosting within the limits of the stock ECU.

Sorry for being a pain but its really quite confusing to grasp the concept as i'm used to NA cars.

I was also reading this:
http://www.ukstarletclub.com/forums/index.php?autocom=tutorials&article=5

Which the stage 1 mods explains you can do somuch without the mention of an fcd or rrfpr, but I cant see me being able to add the following:
FMIC or ARC TMIC
Exhaust system
Decat
HKS actuator running 12psi
manifold
Air filter(but not relocated)
Ported wastegate

without this spiking to fuel cut?

You might get lucky with porting the wastegate and solve any boost creep issues from installing inlet and exhaust mods, but it's VERY hit and miss and I wouldn't put too much hope on being successful. Of course it doesn't cost anything to port the wastegate, but once you've bought and installed your 'boost creep inducing' upgrades you'll be somewhat disappointed to find you can't give the engine more than half throttle in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears.

Finally, does an uprated or ported mani help remove or cause boost creep?

It does neither, the main problem with the stock manifold is the restrictions in the runners of No.2 and No.3 cylinders. They cause a build up of heat in the manifold which can back heat into the cylinder head and combustion chamber. Some claim this to be a potential cause of failed pistons. Either way the stock exhaust manifold isn't great and decent aftermarket manifolds are easily got. Though again this can be a slippery slope, it'd be a good idea at this point to decide whether your going to stick with a CT9 or upgrade the turbo before making a purchase, manifolds and downpipes aren't the cheapest things to buy and so when you invest it's best to only do it once.

I think in the long run I will aim to buy the following mods and then apply the ones which will affect boost/fuelling all at once:
First buy seperately and fit as and when:
Exhaust system
Air filter
FMIC
port wastegate

Then buy and fit all at once: plug and play ECU, decat, set actuator to 1 bar, relocate filter, manifold
Would this be a decent route to go down?

It sounds like your getting the idea, although don't forget that better performance is an 'all round' package, making the car handle and stop better as well as accelerate better will increase the grin factor whilst keeping the car on the road and in one piece.

And with the pnp ecu do you need an uprated fuel pressure reg and fuel pump?

Generally, when replacing the stock ECU for a modified, piggy back or standalone ECU an adjustable FPR isn't required, however installing a nice new shiny fuel pump is never a bad idea.

 

[A L 3 X]

Not experiencing fuel cut without a FCD installed is a good place to be, it means your engine is boosting within the limits of the stock ECU.

Ah right, so it will still fuel adequately if this occurs? So say with a uprated filter, fmic, exhaust etc i could up the boost a little and be safe as long as its not hitting fuel cut?

You might get lucky with porting the wastegate and solve any boost creep issues from installing inlet and exhaust mods, but it's VERY hit and miss and I wouldn't put too much hope on being successful. Of course it doesn't cost anything to port the wastegate, but once you've bought and installed your 'boost creep inducing' upgrades you'll be somewhat disappointed to find you can't give the engine more than half throttle in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears.

Thats true, I may port the wastegate and buy the mods, if it doesn't work it just means i have to move onto the pnp ecu etc quicker, obv take the mods off in the meantime.

It does neither, the main problem with the stock manifold is the restrictions in the runners of No.2 and No.3 cylinders. They cause a build up of heat in the manifold which can back heat into the cylinder head and combustion chamber. Some claim this to be a potential cause of failed pistons. Either way the stock exhaust manifold isn't great and decent aftermarket manifolds are easily got. Though again this can be a slippery slope, it'd be a good idea at this point to decide whether your going to stick with a CT9 or upgrade the turbo before making a purchase, manifolds and downpipes aren't the cheapest things to buy and so when you invest it's best to only do it once.

Ah I see, well my best bet here would probably be to port the stock mani thoroughly int he meantime whilst i decide what turbo route to go down?

It sounds like your getting the idea, although don't forget that better performance is an 'all round' package, making the car handle and stop better as well as accelerate better will increase the grin factor whilst keeping the car on the road and in one piece.

Yep thats correct, I've noticed on stock shocks and lowered springs it does feel a bit boat like compared to my old saxo, although my mate with a starlet said it felt quite a bit better than standard suspension, so i may upgrade to gas shocks, and ad some more handling mods once funds allow. Brakes are a must tbh, they aren't great standard haha, is the custo master cylinder stopper worthwhile?

Generally, when replacing the stock ECU for a modified, piggy back or standalone ECU an adjustable FPR isn't required, however installing a nice new shiny fuel pump is never a bad idea.

Ah I see, so forget the FPR as this will be controlled by the plug n play, but maybe put an uprated pump in?

Are these plug n play ECUs safe then, I read they are tuned to 1 bar, but learn to your mods, so would it be worthwhile buying all mods as mentioned that affect boost levels and fuelling, fit these along with the ECU, up boost to 1 bar or 0.95 to be safe, then get the fuelling checked with a wideband?


Cheers for your help so far mate, its all quite overwhelming but the help you've given makes it easier to understand :rockon: I'm just trying to get a kind of plan in my head where to start and what I wanna achieve.