'Aggressive clutch' killed my new forged engines thrust bearings?!

[GlanzaTD04]

As per above, i have just had a new stage 2 forged engine built by a reptuble company (no exposing the company yet!) and had experienced low oil pressure which has resulted in the cranks thrust bearings being completely destroyed! Now, the company have stripped the engine they have built and have advised that my stage 2 exedy paddle clutch (not the biggest/vicious clutch going) has squashed the thrust bearings resulting in complete failure!

Although im no expert but surely a engine rated to 300bhp+ should need a clutch that can cope with this power? the clutch was a part worn that spent 8months on my previous engine with no issues atall! The company are practically saying that you cant buy a clutch that can cope with the power this engine can produce?! I also left the clutch flywheel + other parts with them when i took engine to them which they actually misplaced!!!! I personally am not happy with their opinion, especially as i will require a new oil pump, bearings, bolts, main caps crank, new piston rings and another block! i have spent over £3000 getting this build up to scratch and has taken months to get it back on the road for the company now to turn around and say they wont cover the bill! although are offering free labour building the engine again and fitting/running in.

So far i have sort a couple of opinions from experts regarding thrust bearing failure due to a aggressive clutch to which they reply BULLSH*T!! Can anyone shed some light on this as i need to consider my opinions to wether i now take them to court? Any help atall is much appreciated as i am fumming as i could not of spent another penny on getting this car built and back on the road how it should be! hellllppppppppp!!!

 

[Chris_GlanzaV98]

Tbh mate why would you have an engine capable of runnin 300+ bhp, get 300bhp out of it only to have the clutch slip and when people say oh you need to upgrade the clutch you cant because the engine wont take it ? Imo alot of rubbish mate the low oil pressure will be the main reason this has happened which will be down to the build not the clutch, i would getthemto replace it all for free incase the oil pump or watever was not perfecteven if it was brand new And if not i would get trading standards in amongst it... Pm me the company please

Hope you get it sorted and my input helps !

 

[Blak_Mamber]

I had pretty much the exact same thing with my engine dude.. Same clutch too and that was what the engine builders were saying was the main problem for low oil pressure. Turned out to be the engineering of the engine which was outsourced from the company and funnily enough they wouldnt hold up their hands and were saying it wasnt their fault but the engine builders fault :homer: Hope you get it sorted dude

 

[GlanzaTD04]

thanks for that bud, every bit helps as it may be 6 of one half dozen of other! yeah exactly, i hear people running twin plate, ogura clutches etc on new builds and are absolutely fine!? they are offering free labour and fitting but why offer all that if it was nothing to do with them?! brand new oil pump, everything was new..apparently according to them the clutch would go way before the acl bearings would but now there changing their mind?!

yeah it does look like im going to have to but its just so much hassle, i just want an engine that works which is what i paid for! they never once said "oh by the way you cant put a clutch in to cope with this power"

cheers again Chris!

 

[GlanzaTD04]

actually pm'd you last night about it lol your the only person ive found so far who's shared the same misery as myself! its sickening when i couldnt of physically spent a penny more! to then be told something lame as a clutch has ruined a "rock solid build"

yeh me too fella!!...how do you get it resolved?

 

[kemnaychris]

As I said before in other post my engine ran a blitz active which is super aggressive clutch kit with a ct9 hybrid and td12 and k26 mate over 300 bhp at one point with a blitz which is one of the most best and agresive clutch out there

Can't see a exedy clutch damaging

my engine was built at Agra and built by Marc as many of u know and it's a few years old now with at least 5k miles and is running as sweet as it should no issues ever with it and with running high boost never missed a beat I would b raging if I was in your shoes :-£

I would expect a refund mate as a clutch should not cause a issue

 

[GlanzaTD04]

no me neither matey, not exactly the harshest of clutches imo either! i had that on my last forged build for quite a while with a td04 hitting 280-290 with no issues atall. yeh kinda wish i had gone elsewhere now, what i dont get is why they build these engines if they cant take a decent clutch..its bollox basically! absolutely livid, fortunately there a 8hr round trip from me or id be there now!! just got to find out where i stand legally to get my money back! might try speak to agra today see there opinions, need to gather as much advise as poss now...unless 'company' can resolve this pretty quickly free of charge! let alone cost of me recovering vehicle there, inconvinience etc...

 

[lukep]

There's no way a clutch is capable of make an engine loose oil pressure. There just taking you for a ride mate. There are a few things that can cause low oil pressure. Bad pump, oil pressure valve, pickup blocked/ seal broken or missing, or the wrong tolerances on the big ends/mains/cams. Warn thrust bearing don't effect oil pressure, they only stop side to side movement on the crank, if they were replaced and checked there within tolerance which they should have done when rebuiling the engine then they would not and could not of caused your oil pressure to drop and cause crank/bearing damage.

 

[GlanzaTD04]

yeah it certainly feels like it mate, just seen a thread by Sam_Brian, exactly same builld exactly same company exactly the same clutch..guess what?...no problems!!

yup brand new oil pump was installled, bearings etc..they built it up timed up and sealed sump so everything oil pressure related is to do with them imo?! obviously im guessing due to the low oil pressure (number of things) this has caused the wear and failure of the thrust bearings im presuming? they spent 4-5hrs building engine back up from scratch..long enough to check tolerances, end play etc?? they wont cover all new parts and machining but have offered free labour/fitting but would you offer this if your not at fault??!!

 

[Iain@CRD]

Ran 2x Exedy Paddle on my engine for 5 years and i know of many other engines that we forged who are running the exact same clutch with no issues even similar or close to this.

A clutch physically cannot starve your engine of oil or be the cause of your thrust bearings going, its an building defection or old parts used.

 

[GlanzaTD04]

so even though they have said its a too aggressive clutch before knowing what clutch i had, but is fine on other motors theyve built??! he said a clutch would die well before acl bearings would but now they r contridicting themselves by saying my clutch is too much for the bearings?!!!

 

[GlanzaTD04]

Ran 2x Exedy Paddle on my engine for 5 years and i know of many other engines that we forged who are running the exact same clutch with no issues even similar or close to this.

A clutch physically cannot starve your engine of oil or be the cause of your thrust bearings going, its an building defection or old parts used.

thanks for tha iain, thats reassuring to know! i was losing oil pressure on idle or coming off revs prior to them completely failiing, they actually advised to replace the clutch cos it could never be the bearings!!...how wrong they were

 

[Iain@CRD]

Its nonsence mate, its easy for me to speculate exactly what has happened without opening up the engine and investigating but i can guarantee you its not the clutch at fault and the clutch its not an area i would even consider to be at fault when the bearings have failed.

Majority of our engines are built of Toyota bearings also as in all honesty ACL wont last much longer/if they last any longer at all than Toyota bearings when starvation is an issue in the engine and we've never had this issue.

 

[GlanzaTD04]

yeh likewise mate, they seeked advise from their engine builders and they said it was an aggressive clutch which makes me question their knowledge and expertise with their engine building..even though everyone rates them as the best?!?!! so basically this wear wouldnt of been caused if it was built within tolerance? obviously i need something factual to be able to go back at them with and to court?

 

[Iain@CRD]

yeh likewise mate, they seeked advise from their engine builders and they said it was an aggressive clutch which makes me question their knowledge and expertise with their engine building..even though everyone rates them as the best?!?!! so basically this wear wouldnt of been caused if it was built within tolerance? obviously i need something factual to be able to go back at them with and to court?

Affectively you need an independant reputable company to take the engine apart and assess what has caused the failure of the bearings and them to supply you a report. However i would like to think that you would never need to get to that stage of considering court to be an option and the company to assist you.

I assume the company is on the forum so im only giving my opinion towards what i believe has resulted in the failure of the engine as i cannot comment on other companies quality of work engine wise, only my own. Sure you understand it puts me in a difficult situation when i have a good relation with most/all traders on here.

Iain

 

[Rob H]

Ive run the same clutch as you on old high mileage engines with no problems so why would you have problems with a new build? as said many times above its bollocks!! I have heard that heavy clutches can speed up wear on thrust bearings which I don't disagree with over time. But it would not cause low oil pressure the oil is fed in through the top bearing cap and squeezed through the bearings which in turn oil the thrust bearings. So the main bearings, big end bearings and other stuff would have to loose the pressure first for the thrust bearings fail.

 

[Rory]

The bandwagon needs to stop now.
This issue is between the person with the issue and the builders.

And yes a heavy clutch will cause problems if its been matched with a worn or even new flywheel. If it vibrates where does the vibrations go...? You geussed it down the crank and to the thrust washers.
How accurate is you oil gauge? Aftermarket or standard item?

Rory

 

[GlanzaTD04]

Affectively you need an independant reputable company to take the engine apart and assess what has caused the failure of the bearings and them to supply you a report. However i would like to think that you would never need to get to that stage of considering court to be an option and the company to assist you.

I assume the company is on the forum so im only giving my opinion towards what i believe has resulted in the failure of the engine as i cannot comment on other companies quality of work engine wise, only my own. Sure you understand it puts me in a difficult situation when i have a good relation with most/all traders on here.

Iain

the thing being is that they've stripped it, seeked advise from their machinsts and they say failure was due to an aggressive clutch, same clutch other people have used and same clutch as i had on my forged engine before. I dont want to go court but dont feel i am getting the answer i need. i dont intend to start giving bad names as i just want this resolved but dont want other people experiencing the same problems with their build if there saying their engines cant deal with a half decent clutch? when i intially thought the bearings had gone they said theres no way that would happen as there bulletproof and that is was definetly my clutch but now to turn around and say my clutch was at fault? contridicting much?
do appreciate your advise though matey

 

[GlanzaTD04]

The bandwagon needs to stop now.
This issue is between the person with the issue and the builders.

And yes a heavy clutch will cause problems if its been matched with a worn or even new flywheel. If it vibrates where does the vibrations go...? You geussed it down the crank and to the thrust washers.
How accurate is you oil gauge? Aftermarket or standard item?


Rory

understand what your saying but im not looking to frame them as such, i am only looking for advise so i can go back to them with evidence suggesting otherwise to what they say is the cause of the problem. surely a exedy stage 2 paddle should not cause that much wear in 2weeks of running in? it was the flywheel and clutch off my old engine so technically already bedded in causing less stress? i even gave them the clutch and flywheel to fit which they lost until i questioned where it was! its an aftermarket pro sport gauge

cheers bud

 

[Fatman]

Aggressive clutches can and do cause wear or even failure to thrust bearings. When a clutch has a high clamp pressure plate fitted, the force required to disengage the clutch is increased in turn. When you apply that force via the clutch pedal acting on the fork you are potentially applying many hundreds of lbs of force on the crank. This force is resisted by the thrust bearings. Excessive use of the clutch e.g pedal down while at the lights, combined with a low idle could easily result in RAPID destruction.

This is a COMMON problem on early 4g63 engines. Search for crank walk if you don't believe me.

There are many variables, most of them outside of the engine builders control. No sense in bad mouthing anybody if you don't know all the facts.