dual runner intake manifold

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hardcoreep

Member +
Toyota T23 said:
Well just talked to those with the 3sge BEAMS VVTI engine, 1 running stock ECU, the orther running Megasquirt and just give constant to VVTI.
Funny enough make the one with megasquirt and constant VVTI more hp and tourghe.
Stock ECU 195hp 230 nm
Megasquirt 198hp 254nm.
Like i said, dont se any problem.

I will get the dyno sheeds
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Was the Megasquirt tuned or untuned. I don't see how the Megasquirt would be able to replicate the Factory ECU programming. My test were a factory ECU against a factory ECU. I would suspect your gains came from having an aftermarket ECU, not a direct comparison.

When we used an aftermarket system, in our case a MoTeC, we held the VVT until 8200rpm right to a set 8500rpm. It made the most torque and there of course was a corresponding increase in horsepower. But the best overall setting was within the factory rpm parameters.

However, this thread isn't about VVT, but ACIS.


my technical answer - no noticble difference with a turbocharger bolted right before it
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What were you using the control the ACIS?
 
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T

Toyota T23

Member +
Who cares if it was tuned or untuned, you said you cant just give VVTI a constant, i would not work, and will give bad tourghe.
I got prove you can, and get good result, end off story.
 
H

hardcoreep

Member +
Toyota T23 said:
Who cares if it was tuned or untuned, you said you cant just give VVTI a constant, i would not work, and will give bad tourghe.
I got prove you can, and get good result, end off story.
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I didn't say you couldn't give VVTi a constant I said giving VVTi a constant would not give you the optimum powerband.

Here's what you do. Get a 3SGTE with a stock ECU do three runs. One with VVTi stock operation, one with VVTi OFF completely (disconnect the solenoid) and then one with a constant ON. Then get back to me.

This is from July 4th 2004 (three years ago). As I've said been there done that, this stuff and engines are old news to us. A back to back dyno run of a Stock ECU 2nd gen 4AGE20v, thus VVT and fueling is as per factory. I've included the full post from another forum.

During my many discussions of 4AGE20v technology, one of the most important points was the difference in design theory than the Honda b16.

Honda uses VTEC, a high lift cam technology to generate power, while Toyota uses everything else to generate power, but understood that people like torque. This was evident in the very first 4AGE's big ports/large valves then TVIS. Now you can't use TVIS on a 4-throttle system because there are no intake manifold runners. So Yamaha devised VVT.

I know, we've been through this before. However one of the topics my friend and I discussed in relation to design theory was what happened if you disabled either.

Now if you disable a performance oriented VTEC on a Honda engine it would make less power than rated. Why? Because, its the cam lift that gives the Honda its high flow and horsepower figures. Bottomline: peak numbers would drop. (if there is evident to this otherwise, feel free to post so)

If you disabled VVT on a 4AGE20v it was revealed that the hp figures would basically stay the same and torque would drop off. This is natural high flow nature is built into the 4AGE20v, and here its is. There's more to this, but i'll get to it later.

The Blue is VVT disconnected. Notice, peak power went up 1hp and the torque nosedived to under 100lb/ft.
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NDR008

NDR008

Fresh Recruit
If you guys are gona be so aggresive I am closing this thread. The thread is about ACIS, so go back on topic or I close it.

Toyota T23: If you win one argument, it doesn't mean anything you say after and before must be correct. you must still earn your credibility each time.

Regarding ACIS, as I said, these tests have been done over and over, and there has always been one ambigious parameter such as an ECU, or other mods that went at the same time, that could be associated with the loss/gain.

I am 100% confident, that they have noticable effect. The idea of different length runners, is to get the aucoustic pipe length timing for shockwaves right in such a way to facilitate an NA car to suck in more air from the atmosphere....

Now tell me, where does a turbo car engine get its air from? The TURBO!!! The turbo is so hot, and causing so much turbulance, that you cannot use these tricks of intake length crap...

ps for the record, VVT (and all variations of it), and ACIS are 100% totally different, even if VVT would give gains - which I don't have enough knowledge to argue, it would not imply that so would ACIS.

Also if ACIS DID work on a starlet, it would be working for totally different reasons, it could be something as silly as longer runners allowing more heat to dissipate out of the charged air.
 
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T

Toyota T23

Member +
hardcoreep said:
I didn't say you couldn't give VVTi a constant I said giving VVTi a constant would not give you the optimum powerband.

Here's what you do. Get a 3SGTE with a stock ECU do three runs. One with VVTi stock operation, one with VVTi OFF completely (disconnect the solenoid) and then one with a constant ON. Then get back to me.

This is from July 4th 2004 (three years ago). As I've said been there done that, this stuff and engines are old news to us. A back to back dyno run of a Stock ECU 2nd gen 4AGE20v, thus VVT and fueling is as per factory. I've included the full post from another forum.



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Who said anything about constant to VVTI from 0 rpm, we switch it on at a certain rpm.
Offcourse power will drop if you dont use VVT ??, why else have it ??, like i said before, i tuned a few 4age 20 v, running megasquirt, so i should mean i know a little bit about those engines.
Hardcore: How many 4age 20v engines have you tryed moving the vvt switch point?, and with different cams?, and what did it tell you ?
Yes i have dyno from both, stock ECU and running megasquirt.
Just need to get the last one from the girl who have car, then i post it.
 
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NDR008

NDR008

Fresh Recruit
Did you take ambient pressure and ambient temperature readings during the two runs and apply any power correction factors for the two dyno runs? SAE, DIN, BS, ISO any standard whatsoever to make those 2 power figures you had directly comparable...
 
T

Toyota T23

Member +
Well never mind about numbers, but what interesting is that it made good powerband just using VVTI as on/off and not varibel.
 
V

villen25

Member +
NDR008 said:
If you guys are gona be so aggresive I am closing this thread. The thread is about ACIS, so go back on topic or I close it.

Toyota T23: If you win one argument, it doesn't mean anything you say after and before must be correct. you must still earn your credibility each time.

Regarding ACIS, as I said, these tests have been done over and over, and there has always been one ambigious parameter such as an ECU, or other mods that went at the same time, that could be associated with the loss/gain.

I am 100% confident, that they have noticable effect. The idea of different length runners, is to get the aucoustic pipe length timing for shockwaves right in such a way to facilitate an NA car to suck in more air from the atmosphere....

Now tell me, where does a turbo car engine get its air from? The TURBO!!! The turbo is so hot, and causing so much turbulance, that you cannot use these tricks of intake length crap...

ps for the record, VVT (and all variations of it), and ACIS are 100% totally different, even if VVT would give gains - which I don't have enough knowledge to argue, it would not imply that so would ACIS.

Also if ACIS DID work on a starlet, it would be working for totally different reasons, it could be something as silly as longer runners allowing more heat to dissipate out of the charged air.
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okay noticable difference Naturally aspirated, no noticable difference with turbo... correct?
 
G

gorganl2000

Lifer
yeah...hoodey showeds it can be used to great effect on his previous ep91

i think there are one or two guys around locally who have run this set up in various configurations to some positive effect,,,,,,,,but as usual, everyone dont like to tell their secrets,,,,,,,,,but it has been proven to work with nice gains on bigger turbos
 
T

Toyota T23

Member +
"but as usual, everyone dont like to tell their secrets"

Hehe ofcourse not.
We often spend many hours trying different setups, and dont want that everybody just copi it.
I stoped telling what i do to my engine.
 
V

villen25

Member +
gorganl2000 said:
yeah...hoodey showeds it can be used to great effect on his previous ep91

i think there are one or two guys around locally who have run this set up in various configurations to some positive effect,,,,,,,,but as usual, everyone dont like to tell their secrets,,,,,,,,,but it has been proven to work with nice gains on bigger turbos
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I was trying to get because i knew someone with one, should I attempt it? Comlicated setup? Any ideas what they did?
 
H

hardcoreep

Member +
villen25 said:
I was trying to get because i knew someone with one, should I attempt it? Comlicated setup? Any ideas what they did?
Click to expand...
I posted what he did. He uses the extra map on the Emanage ultimate. He did a run with them open and another with them closed. He then combined the rpm points on the dyno sheet into a matrix on the NVCS control out of the EMU. the result was the best of both worlds where the car had massive low end torque and high rpm power.

He did it properly. What happened is that people thought it was vacuum controlled only because they would just get the manifold alone. We saw the full setup on a Corolla II and used a single trigger SDS for the operation.
 
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V

villen25

Member +
hardcoreep said:
I posted what he did. He uses the extra map on the Emanage ultimate. He did a run with them open and another with them closed. He then combined the rpm points on the dyno sheet into a matrix on the NVCS control out of the EMU. the result was the best of both worlds where the car had massive low end torque and high rpm power.

He did it properly. What happened is that people thought it was vacuum controlled only because they would just get the manifold alone. We saw the full setup on a Corolla II and used a single trigger SDS for the operation.
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So other than the manifold, what is necessay... im getting the ultiamate in january
 
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