fuel pressure reg question rrfpr or fpr and settings

hi all its been a while since i posted last lol but i have been reading up on fprs and and still havent found a proper answer to my question. right to be running 1 bar of boost you have to have your fpr set a 3.1 bar ish with an fcd but what kind of pressure reg a rising rate or a one that holds the pressure a 3.1 as in its 3.1 at idle or 3.1 at full boost? as standard fuel pressure is about 2.2 bar at idle. i think one pressure reg with the vac line increases so if its 2.2 at idle it would be 3.2 at 1 bar boost would this be correct any info appreciated. im geting a tdo4 kit for my glanza and would like to hav it a 1 bar wit fpr and fcd and i know ill have to get my fuelling checked but running a bit rich while im waiting wouldnt be the worst thing i might get a wide band if i have funds left but would have a know much about the afr ratios. thanks for reading
 

Jay

Admin
Best to set it up in conjunction with a wideband and det cans mate. Guestimating the fuel pressures is a gamble with heavy consequences. Seen quite a few blown engines resulting from online research and hearsay.

Jay
 
ya i know what your saying pump might not keep pressure up ect but i got the some of the info from here and other from uksc. http://www.toyotagtturbo.com/forums/showwiki.php?title=How+to+Install+a+Fuel+Pressure+Regulator thats the link to the one on here that says 3.1 bar but all i want to no is it all round or 2.2 for the idle the the vac line will increase it as it boost it curiosity mostly because im gna run .8 on my tdo4 until i have enuff for the rest off the supporting mods and get my tb done and ignition timing checked then i will want to bring it to the bar. as it stands my glanza has fmic, 5 ziegen cat back, ct9 with relocated filter had a decat but i hav a nct coming up so its out. atm my glanza running .8 on standard actuator but creeps when its very cold out my eml came on once or twice but backed off before it fuel cutted so i dont drive it too hard now as i dont want to damage my engine with fuel cut uno. i was also told with a boost controller the turbo will spool up quicker as it takes the acting pressure off the actuator until the boost you want is achieved
 
hi adam yes i think so but there 1:1 and another ratio aswel that i cant think of right now and as for the proper settings at idle and on boost ect would be really helpful :) if you read the link that i posted he has it set at 3.1 bar at idle, if his is a rrfpr wont his got to 4.2 bar when he is on full boost? will the ecu just trim the extra fuel or will the injector max on there duty cycle and not use the excess pressure?
 
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AdamB

Member +
You want 1:1 is ideal. The pressure will be set accordance to whatever the tuner deems best, to get the right correct AFR and with the least amount of knock. A drive to the tuners set at 3 bar without boosting is safe.

The ecu will not trim any fuel because the FPR is a mechanical device, not electronic.
 
yes it is mechanical but injectors are controlled by the ecu? is the fpr just tricking them? i know if i want to trim the fueling ill need management i was told a neo was too basic and crude because it messes up ignition timing?
 

ben10

Member +
yes it is mechanical but injectors are controlled by the ecu? is the fpr just tricking them? i know if i want to trim the fueling ill need management i was told a neo was too basic and crude because it messes up ignition timing?
set the fuel pressure to 3 bar on idle.. for a bar of boost. it will go higher as the boost increases
 
it will only get higher if the vac line is on? the oe one is a 1:1 ratio rrfpr and at idle its 2.2 so my idea of it was the end pressure would be 3.2. someone here sure knows how to explain this simply
 

Jay

Admin
Yes, the stock fuel regulator will need a vacuum feed from the inlet manifold to function properly. If it doesn't see the boost it doesn't support the boost.

I think you will find the majority of people won't want to offer any specific settings as if it's wrong you will be undoubtedly cheesed off. Especially if you are picking bits of metal off the roadside.

Again I'm going to advise you check your fuelling with a wideband whilst setting your boost level to be sure what is happening. Then you can upgrade the stock regulator as/if necessary. At least you can be 100% sure of the AFR's mate.

I've seen a lot of cars react differently even when (essentially) the turbo and engine is the same spec.

Jay
 
so shud i get an fpr and just not install it uptil im ready to bring it to a rr like westward? and just keep it off boost on the way there and have the base set at 3.1 bar? shud i buy a neo or something jay as the info is as u said all over the place on the net, i just want to get my tdo4 running at a bar safely as possible i dont want a blown engine the starlet shud see a nice gain over the ct9 even at .8 and will be at .8 until i get fcd and fpr and maybe a neo or similar? i dont want to fork out 500+ for a jam ecu as u dnt really no what setup it was mapped for, id be happy with 180 t 200 bhp, id like to get it dynoed anyway after all my hard work :rockon:
 
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Jay

Admin
Yes, pretty much don't boost it till you have a wideband reading to look at, just to be 100% sure you aren't doing any potential damage mate. Best to get them to check for det too at the same time.

If you are running .8 on a TD04 you may find the stock system is running out of fuel. That's usually when an aftermarket adjustable RRFR is added to most setups. Increasing the fuel pressure will give you extra fuel but it will do it all across the rev range so even at idle you will be overfuelling. This obviously isn't ideal but it's necessary to ensure the fuel is there under wide open throttle senarios. About 75% of tuned EP's I see are running like this. A lot of them have been running for years.

I'm not familiar with the Neo's but it used to be commonplace for a fuel computer (the likes of an Apexi SAFC or SAFC2) to be installed and used to trim the excess fuel out at idle and light cruise. This would take a few of the rough edges off the initial crude approach. After that you are into more extensive management.

Aftermarket 'plug n play' JDM ECU's are hit and miss with modified setups. More hit than miss in my experience and a valid option for many where peak power isn't an imperative goal.

I'd steer clear of the Emanage Blue personally as I've heard of quite a few issues (Mr Carson has many a tale to tell I'm sure) but the Ultimate seems to be a weapon of choice for many.

There are many other options of course (FCON, PFC, etc) but the main thing to bear in mind is who will be mapping the bugger. Find a tuner you can trust and go with his recommendations. No point fitting an all singing, all dancing ECU that can only be tuned a few hundred miles away. :)

Jay
 

Weyro

Member +
just to add some confusion :D

Ive found that the stock FPR and injectors can easily run a td04 at 1bar. All you need is a fuel controller, such as an SAFC or SFC Hyper R, to trim the map voltage under fuel cut, at 4,5,6,7,8k rpm points.

Ive been running this for a couple days at 11.4 afr WOT, and it still retains standard AFR at idle etc.
 

Jay

Admin
just to add some confusion :D

Ive found that the stock FPR and injectors can easily run a td04 at 1bar. All you need is a fuel controller, such as an SAFC or SFC Hyper R, to trim the map voltage under fuel cut, at 4,5,6,7,8k rpm points.

Ive been running this for a couple days at 11.4 afr WOT, and it still retains standard AFR at idle etc.

As already said, for every statement you will find a random contradiction lol.

Now the only issue with that is if there is an electrical failure with the fuel controller (seen it happen) your fuelling will revert back to stock levels and you will run lean. Best practice would be to raise the fuel pressure and trim it back with the fuel computer. That way if the computer messes up the engine will run rich instead. A safer fallback position just.

Jay
 

Weyro

Member +
I thought that since im trimming fuel out with the controller, if it fails it would go rich?

But it would hit fuel cut first since the MAP voltage is no longer being reduced.

At 0.65bar boost, and standard fpr+injectors, the car is running 11 afr, when i up the boost to 0.8bar it runs 10.4 afr, so ignoring fuel cut, if oyu could run 1bar with no map trimming, it would probably be running an afr in the 9's.
 

bongskag

Member +
had mine setup on a dyno

im running a ,tdo4 ,315cc injectors, rrfpr set to 2.8 idle with the vac on . @ .8bar i have an innovate wideband, it about 11.2 on WOT, 14.7 cruising a bit lean on idle (15.5-16.5) the tuner said it doent matter too much on idle, is this true ?
 

ben10

Member +
had mine setup on a dyno

im running a ,tdo4 ,315cc injectors, rrfpr set to 2.8 idle with the vac on . @ .8bar i have an innovate wideband, it about 11.2 on WOT, 14.7 cruising a bit lean on idle (15.5-16.5) the tuner said it doent matter too much on idle, is this true ?

sounds spot on... mine goes idle a little on idle then settles around 14.8. wont do any harm at idle aslong as there is no load on the engine
 

Jay

Admin
I thought that since im trimming fuel out with the controller, if it fails it would go rich?

But it would hit fuel cut first since the MAP voltage is no longer being reduced.

At 0.65bar boost, and standard fpr+injectors, the car is running 11 afr, when i up the boost to 0.8bar it runs 10.4 afr, so ignoring fuel cut, if oyu could run 1bar with no map trimming, it would probably be running an afr in the 9's.

Aye but if it fails you will return to a stock map and you will hit fuelcut. Fuelcut will only protect so much, you can still melt rings under the wrong circumstances.

AFR's at idle are fine so long as the car is getting enough fuel to idle. Too rich an idle AFR (I've seen them in the 9's and 10's on cars before!) could signal a risk of borewash which isn't good for your engine.
 

Texx

Super Moderator
Slight wall of text attack and it may not make much sense, but I've not slept for 36 hours. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it :p


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The first thing to take into account is peak fuel pressure at the fuel rail, ideally you do not want to see more than 4.5BAR. Increasing the fuel pressure alters the spray pattern of the injector, alter the spray pattern too much and the fuel will not atomise sufficiently.

What is the purpose of the FPR... why do we need a FPR that has a rising rate of 1:1...

The simple answer is to maintain an equal pressure differencial between the inlet manifold and fuel rail regardless of boost pressure or manifold depression conditions. Base fuel pressure is set via the FPR with the vacuum hose disconnected, this ensures our base fuel pressure is X PSI or X BAR above atmospheric pressure or 0PSIg, this base pressure is the pressure differencial and will always be a constant.

For example; We set our base fuel pressure at 44PSIg (3BAR) (with the engine at idle, vacuum hose disconnected from the FPR), so now our pressure differencial is set at 44PSIg. Next we reconnect the vacuum hose to our FPR and assuming our boost gauge is reading (technically incorrect but used to get the point across) -7.5PSIg or -0.5BAR etc... our fuel pressure should drop by -7.5PSIg from 44PSIg to 36.5PSIg, still maintaining the 44PSIg pressure differential. Likewise if we hit full boost at 14.5PSIg or 1BAR our fuel pressure should increase from 44PSIg to 58.5PSIg, again maintaining the 44PSIg pressure differential.

Why do we need this pressure differential? Think of pressure as the force pushing (it actually pulls but forget that part) the fuel out of the injectors and into the inlet in a similar way to the battery voltage being the force turning the starter motor and the engine. We need 12 volts to make that starter motor turn and we also need our 44PSIg to get the right volume of fuel out of the injector for the time it's switched on. If our battery voltage drops to 6 volts there wont be enough force for the starter motor to do it's job, if our fuel pressure differential drops below 44PSIg then we won't get enough fuel into the engine and risk the chance of 'running lean'.

If we did not use a RRFPR our fuel pressure differential would drop as manifold pressure increased, i.e. if we don't increase fuel pressure by 14.5PSIg when running 14.5PSIg of boost then our pressure differential will drop to 29.5PSIg, this means less fuel flow through the injectors (the ECU only controls how long they're switched on for) and our pistons won't be lasting for very long.

So to summarise a little, take you peak boost pressure and subtract it from 4.5BAR, what you are left with is the maximum pressure differential or base fuel pressure you should run. If the injectors cannot deliver enough fuel with that pressure differential then you need larger injectors.

In extreme cases you can run a peak fuel pressure of more than 4.5BAR, but you need to confirm that the injectors your going to use can work at that peak fuel pressure and also confirm that your fuel pump can flow enough fuel at that fuel pressure. Another factor to consider is fuel temperature, when you compress or pressurise, temperature increase, with an increase in temperature comes a further increase in pressure (as pressure increases, flow decreases), so theoretical guess work is not real life testing. Never run on the limit of your fuel supply system unless you have a spare engine and you like changing them.
 
@jay ya i can get a neo for around 80 euros so if it would do enuff to keep the fuelling ryt at a bar it would suit my setup then.
thanks texx man thats the answer i was looking for really cheers!
 
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