300whp Jamaica style
- Thread starter hardcoreep
- Start date
parigtturbo
Fresh Recruit
i totally believe in hardcoreep, as even for me alot of information is passed from mouth to mouth and people dont take time to do proper research into how things work. i had a friend that has a car running 230bhp on a factory 4efte, using a turbo of a supra, which was slightly modified. people were so quick to jump to the conclusion that its not possible.
sx_turbo
Lifer
that is possible.
peoples points are though is that why is every tom dick and harry having to go forged pistons and rods etc, when all we had to do was buy a monkey ecu like an emanage ultimate some big injectors and a big turbo.
i'll believe it when i see it, but for now it's just impossible.
i would say its possible to run that turbo at 1.2bar on stock internals with a decent map, but it cant cope with any more imo
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EP824U
Member +
No need to slate Krissy, he was a bit of a twat the way he piped up all over this build thread but he did apologise. People are telling him he doesnt know shit when he clearly does. he has always been a helpful member to me as with a fair few others and always answered problems Ive had when I got my first starlet. Tbh, I agree with Ricky 2. I love ambitious builds but cannot see the internals lasting but hopefully us in the UK are proved wrong.
Rory, I wish you good luck with the build and hope you make more history in the starlet tuning scene. You are respected by us all and have our support. Keep as updated and keep up the good work. :drive:
Rory, I wish you good luck with the build and hope you make more history in the starlet tuning scene. You are respected by us all and have our support. Keep as updated and keep up the good work. :drive:
GTti
Member +
You're right with the first comment. People in the UK have been scared to make the larger investment in stand alone aftermarket engine management. There are still are very little GT's around that have experimented in this area, given more experience and installs it's perfectly possible theres more to extract than you think.
I never thought it was possible to get a 150% performance increase from a 12v 3cylinder 993cc GTti engine. But it's been done (250BHP+).
dyno1
dyno2
Would I want to drive that car over my own proposed solution (At least 60% less power, perhaps more)? Nope, that car would be useless on pretty much any UK race track.
Fatman
Member +
Those dyno graphs appear to have a fairly reasonable torque curve to my eye, obviously not much of a streetable motor but with the correct gearing you could keep that consistently in its powerband around any circuit I can think of..
Having said that I'm not familiar with the gearboxes these cars use.
I cant believe Ive only just found this thread 
First off, congratulations rory for putting up with peoples crap and posting such a full write up on the build. I dont know if you remember me but im the australian guy that was building the 5e about 4 years ago, you shared a lot of information with me that made the build a lot easier. Just wanted to say thanks again for your help and for sharing your knowledge. Ive found a lot of people on here are more open to sharing their wisdom, such as the malta guys who have also helped me.
Whats this about the english not being able to make power? A swift that made 200 whp here just got sent over there and made 340whp in bristol with a misfire :haha: He just laughed. Dynos have a lot of variance in them put qtr mile times and mph dont lie. I cant believe people are still doubting the jamaicans. Theyve achieved these results many times on many cars and have the fastest starlets in the world. Maybe people should listen for once.
Just have a few questions for you though rory;
1. You mentioned the e-manage was the preffered choice of ecu there. How does this go with controlling ignition. I was reading one of the jamaican sites that said they were having trouble with the std ecu taking over and dropping timing due to low ron fuel. Is this the case?
2. What sort of ign advance are you running on these engines? Due to the weaker std internals and rings, I imagine the slightest detonation could destroy an engine pretty fast, do you tend to retard the ign a little to give allowances for variances in fuel ron, (it tends to vary from pump to pump here) or do you just go balls deep and tune on the edge?
3. Are you still using the std ringlands. With most std engines that are pushed over here, the rings seem to be the first thing to go around 240hp. Then again this could just be detonation.
4. What sort of headbolts do you use? On std bolts Mine lifted the head, spraying a thin mist of coolant and then re-sealed after a full power run at 300hp. now running close to 330whp but just blew a gasket.
Look forward to your responses and thanks again for taking the time to do the write up. Can mods maybe move this from chill out room and maybe sticky it in the tech section. Would be a shame to see all this info get buried in the forum after a few months
Cheers
Harry
Maybe so, but big hp doesnt always have to mean non responsive. I now have more power yet another 1100rpm response since I ran the 11.2 qm. I circuit race my car regularly and its always been very responsive.
First off, congratulations rory for putting up with peoples crap and posting such a full write up on the build. I dont know if you remember me but im the australian guy that was building the 5e about 4 years ago, you shared a lot of information with me that made the build a lot easier. Just wanted to say thanks again for your help and for sharing your knowledge. Ive found a lot of people on here are more open to sharing their wisdom, such as the malta guys who have also helped me.
Whats this about the english not being able to make power? A swift that made 200 whp here just got sent over there and made 340whp in bristol with a misfire :haha: He just laughed. Dynos have a lot of variance in them put qtr mile times and mph dont lie. I cant believe people are still doubting the jamaicans. Theyve achieved these results many times on many cars and have the fastest starlets in the world. Maybe people should listen for once.
Just have a few questions for you though rory;
1. You mentioned the e-manage was the preffered choice of ecu there. How does this go with controlling ignition. I was reading one of the jamaican sites that said they were having trouble with the std ecu taking over and dropping timing due to low ron fuel. Is this the case?
2. What sort of ign advance are you running on these engines? Due to the weaker std internals and rings, I imagine the slightest detonation could destroy an engine pretty fast, do you tend to retard the ign a little to give allowances for variances in fuel ron, (it tends to vary from pump to pump here) or do you just go balls deep and tune on the edge?
3. Are you still using the std ringlands. With most std engines that are pushed over here, the rings seem to be the first thing to go around 240hp. Then again this could just be detonation.
4. What sort of headbolts do you use? On std bolts Mine lifted the head, spraying a thin mist of coolant and then re-sealed after a full power run at 300hp. now running close to 330whp but just blew a gasket.
Look forward to your responses and thanks again for taking the time to do the write up. Can mods maybe move this from chill out room and maybe sticky it in the tech section. Would be a shame to see all this info get buried in the forum after a few months
Cheers
Harry
Maybe so, but big hp doesnt always have to mean non responsive. I now have more power yet another 1100rpm response since I ran the 11.2 qm. I circuit race my car regularly and its always been very responsive.
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GTti
Member +
From my experience in these cars it wouldn't be a joy to drive with a huge lack of anything below 5,500 RPM, I've looked at videos of this car and it's not for me. The standard car reaches full boost at around 3,000RPM.
You look at a dyno with different eyes, I like to see overall useable area underneath the power and torque curve. At 4,000RPM I expect to be seeing the torque figures that car is around 5000 - 5500RPM.
The gear ratios are very short, even in stock form the car is quick at accelerating in most gears. A burst of huge power and torque over a 2,000RPM duration, coupled with the lack of traction and steering ability is not my idea of quick track times.
In Lewis' GTxx which I took to Llandow the setup was ideal (In engine terms), a carefully selected compressor gave the car good pulling power out of the corners at under 4,000RPM, whilst still mainting its puff up to 8,000RPM. He recently found it has 164BHP - on the day it was as quick out of the corners and a straight line than his own TD04 GT with not far off a 100BHP advantage. There were other cars like Nick's that proved you don't need huge power figures, you need the right compromise. Obviously though it was a small track and less suited for top speed.
Other factors are
- Why rev (overload) the engine when you can extract plenty of power and torque mid to high range with the right turbo.
- Large surge of torque is more likely to damage gearbox teeth, clutch components, driveshafts.
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Fatman
Member +
All very fair comments, just to elaborate, this sort of curve is definitely not what I'd build either. It sounds like we share quite similar goals in terms of response and power delivery. In my observation for an all out circuit racer that torque curve isn't unusual, it's fairly irrelevant what the torque is at 3-4k rpm if you have the gearing to ensure you never get that low. Tuning is always a compromise between this and that, for my use that's a bit too compromised but i'm sure it suits the owners purposes well.
GTti
Member +
Gearing is not something that's easily modified on a car that's almost 22 years old, and with very little aftermarket components. Being able to modify a CB80 is a challenging job, you have little option but to work around the limitations, hence why turbo selection and engine characteristics is very relevant
My focus has been to avoid extracting everything from the engine, but concentrate on weight saving and rotational dead weight. I want a reliable car, but there will still be a very attractive power to weight ratio.
My focus has been to avoid extracting everything from the engine, but concentrate on weight saving and rotational dead weight. I want a reliable car, but there will still be a very attractive power to weight ratio.
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Fatman
Member +
Gearing is not something that's easily modified on a car that's almost 22 years old, and with very little aftermarket components. Being able to modify a CB80 is a challenging job, you have little option but to work around the limitations, hence why turbo selection and engine characteristics is very relevant
My focus has been to avoid extracting everything from the engine, but concentrate on weight saving and rotational dead weight. I want a reliable car, but there will still be a very attractive power to weight ratio.
Fair enough
We've got a fellow locally with a reasonably serious charade turbo and he was looking seriously into converting to the toyota c52/c56 starlet gearbox for strength and a far wider choice of final drives. Not sure if he ever did complete the swap but apparently it had been done before...
GTti
Member +
Is that Al by any chance, from Driven Performance?
Yes I'm seeing the same things, but would rather it be proven before a route I'd take. Starlet boxes are certainly a strong point, GTti's are known for a weak fifth and you have to be careful with big or sudden torque figures. I suspect his problems may be something to do with the phantom grip, I'm lucky enough to own a Modena torsen LSD and it's amazing.
I have stumbled upon some gear sets available in australia, they also make some for the Starlet. http://www.albinsgear.com.au/
Yes I'm seeing the same things, but would rather it be proven before a route I'd take. Starlet boxes are certainly a strong point, GTti's are known for a weak fifth and you have to be careful with big or sudden torque figures. I suspect his problems may be something to do with the phantom grip, I'm lucky enough to own a Modena torsen LSD and it's amazing.
I have stumbled upon some gear sets available in australia, they also make some for the Starlet. http://www.albinsgear.com.au/
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Fatman
Member +
Certainly is! I gave him a few technical details when he was first looking into doing the swap. Do you know how he got on? Haven't seen him or his car all winter.
GTti
Member +
He mentioned the issues he was having, I saw he'd been through a handfull of gearboxes! But I haven't been that active recently so don't know. I do know someone with the Albin's gears and he hasn't had a problem and is very heavily modified.
I bought my coilovers from Al and run a similar setup.
I'm not sure his turbo choice suits the car, I think he'd be better off with a slightly smaller trim with the current gearbox, alot of mid corner shifting and short shifting to prevent wheelspin - but it still looks fast (Incidently he also reaches a torque peak at around 5000RPM with a lack of prior - dyno).
I bought my coilovers from Al and run a similar setup.
I'm not sure his turbo choice suits the car, I think he'd be better off with a slightly smaller trim with the current gearbox, alot of mid corner shifting and short shifting to prevent wheelspin - but it still looks fast (Incidently he also reaches a torque peak at around 5000RPM with a lack of prior - dyno).
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Fatman
Member +
I also bought my coilovers from him :haha:
From what I saw of it at the last timeattack event we both attended the car had quite a bit more to give, he was just fresh to the track and being conservative.
Great link on the Albin's gears, it's a pity they don't make anything for the S series box... though they certainly appear to have the capability!
From what I saw of it at the last timeattack event we both attended the car had quite a bit more to give, he was just fresh to the track and being conservative.
Great link on the Albin's gears, it's a pity they don't make anything for the S series box... though they certainly appear to have the capability!
For all the naysayers, a 4EFE is considered to be too much of a weak platform for turbocharging. Yet back on the old forum and there were pics showing the engine bay etc. Dale from Australia whose company was called braidedlines.com turbocharged his girlfriend's 4EFE Starlet and using a water to air intercooler and Microtech stand alone ECU plus TD04L he made 190WHP on all standard internals. All this info was lost when the site got hacked several times. @ KrissyB who claims that a 9.8:1CR turbo 5EFHE cannot last 5 minutes, here in Florida we have several running 16PSI daily driven on 93RON Octane with 4EFTE electronics, (ECU wire loom, coil & ignitor) plus eManage Blue for 5+ years. The key to making these standard internal 5E'S live is all about the timing and careful tuning of the AFR. In all things automotive you have to keep an open mind. In 1973 Ford campaigned two Ford Capris in the old FIA Group 5 series running 1.4 litre turbocharged BDA'S that made 373HP. These cars ran against 2.7 litre turbocharged Porsches and ran very well until Porsche stepped up their game and the Fords had to change to 1700cc engines. In 1983 BMW'S F1 1.5 litre turbo engine made 1500WHP in qualifying trim. Yes these are purpose built engines but we have come a long way, so why all the doubts? In 1983 I drove an original Mini equipped with a turbocharged 1293cc engine with Lucas mechanical fuel injection and a Holset turbo. It was rated at 180HP at the flywheel. This engine was featured in the old Car & Car Conversions magazine back in the day and was campaigned in a Mini in the UK from where it was sold to one of Barbados' premier racers and then bought by a friend of mine in Jamaica.
On another note Rhys Millen is campaigning a Pontiac Soltice Turbo in the D1 drift series and yes he is using alcohol as fuel and the compression ratio is 14:1
On another note Rhys Millen is campaigning a Pontiac Soltice Turbo in the D1 drift series and yes he is using alcohol as fuel and the compression ratio is 14:1
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KrissyB
Member +
:rockon: cool man good information there
www.glanza.co.uk
Super Mod (極度の調整器)
Toyota T23
Member +
Im starting a new thread dude about Horse power etc please explain in there fella
a 5efthE will make 252 EØF hp, at 1.05 bar, so 300 EØF, is not that hard to reach