can you run td04 on standard internals

[Jonny-GTTuning]

1 bar on standard internals is safe enough, i ran 1.2 bar for about 6 months or so, ended up with 2 holes in my block where one of the rods decided it had had enough and wanted to escape out the back and front of the block. lol

 

[aaronw]

ive been runnin td04 on my gt for about 18months,i cant remember to be exact,never let me down.

mods

hks fmic
walbro fuel pump
would advise new gaskets (mani-head,turbo-mani,and turbo-decat)
td04 mani and decat
td04 turbo,water n oil lines inc. oil return
smaller rad (civic is cheap £30 new on ebay)
leads ,plugs ect...at .75bar,unmapped... flames n pops but i dont rag it.
need an uprated clutch too,paddle is the normal upgrade

i wouldnt call lag a downside as its worth the wait,saves me alot on fuel around town and long distance drivin as the turbo isnt always on call.

hope this helps

 

[Fatman]

my friend blew 2 engines,legs out of bed twice,once with ct9 at 1 bar,2nd time with tdo4 at 1 bar, pfc fcon used in both cases.fuelling was spot on as it was checked when the car done a power run.
i bent a rod before,but was runniung a fairly standard engine with few mods.
ive also seen standard glanzas blow rods through the block.
to think than a glanza rod,can run over 250bhp,and cope,is fucking rediculas in MY opinion.
theres a thread on here,of some1 who ran 1.4 bar on a stock engine,think it lasted 2 weeks.

There's your problem...

Fueling can be perfect but if your timing curve is completely wrong for the boost/turbo you're running then you're going to run into problems. Problems in this case being detonation and an exploding engine. As I understand it the PFC F-CON is a map sensor type intercept piggyback computer, it 'tricks' the stock ECU into fueling correctly. What it doesn't take into account is that if the stock ecu is 'seeing' 0.8 bar and it's actually at 1.2 on a larger turbo it's going to be advancing the timing a LOT more than is desirable.

TUNING ISN'T JUST FUEL.

This is why piggybacks are rubbish and should never be used for anything over a relatively small boost pressure increase.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm afraid it's a fact - Glanza rods can and have held over 350bhp for extended periods, just because yours didn't doesn't mean they all can't.

 

[Phil]

the fcon can have and mine did have a 3bar map sensor that allows the piggback to see the true boost level and adjust the fuelling for that, though granted you have no control over timing, that being said you cant very well tar all piggybacks with the same brush, emanage ultimate is much more than a fuel computer, without going as far as standalone.

Phil

 

[Johnny_C]

There's your problem...

Fueling can be perfect but if your timing curve is completely wrong for the boost/turbo you're running then you're going to run into problems. Problems in this case being detonation and an exploding engine. As I understand it the PFC F-CON is a map sensor type intercept piggyback computer, it 'tricks' the stock ECU into fueling correctly. What it doesn't take into account is that if the stock ecu is 'seeing' 0.8 bar and it's actually at 1.2 on a larger turbo it's going to be advancing the timing a LOT more than is desirable.

TUNING ISN'T JUST FUEL.

This is why piggybacks are rubbish and should never be used for anything over a relatively small boost pressure increase.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm afraid it's a fact - Glanza rods can and have held over 350bhp for extended periods, just because yours didn't doesn't mean they all can't.

you can preach to me all you like,but glanza rods are fucking rubbish when going over a bar on bigger turbos.

 

[billybob]

you can preach to me all you like,but glanza rods are fucking rubbish when going over a bar on bigger turbos.

x2 johnny some people just like to be right all the timeglanza rods wount hold 300 bhp simple as sorry 350bhp

 

[Animal GT]

sump


off


you


enlightened

i gota tell ya this mate!!!!
ya forgot the famous


PHIL:haha::haha::haha:

 

[Starbus]

well aware you know your stuff starbus,

but johnny has a collection of bent chicken legs.

and he has an ecu none of this fcd nonsense.

i know that theortically it could work, its just when you say "if nothing changes" then the engine will be fine" but how fine a line are we talking here? plenty of checked and tuned engines go pop, so whats the secret? drive about with det cans on if the weather changes?

Phil

Having an ECU thats badly mapped is worse than running a stock ECU IMO.

Forged rods have their place, but if you're BENDING them other than from revs then it's an issue that's not going to be solved by putting stronger ones in there, you're just masking the symptoms. A rod doesn't progressively bend, all things being equal if it survives once it's likely to survive for quite a while - if they're all bent and it happens all at once it's due to a tune related issues. Pre-ignition can result in cylinder pressures an order of magnitude higher and is the only way I can see of bending a set of rods in the manner described.

Least 2 people on this thread know what there talking about

my friend blew 2 engines,legs out of bed twice,once with ct9 at 1 bar,2nd time with tdo4 at 1 bar,pfc fcon used in both cases.fuelling was spot on as it was checked when the car done a power run.
i bent a rod before,but was runniung a fairly standard engine with few mods.
ive also seen standard glanzas blow rods through the block.
to think than a glanza rod,can run over 250bhp,and cope,is fucking rediculas in MY opinion.
theres a thread on here,of some1 who ran 1.4 bar on a stock engine,think it lasted 2 weeks.

Saying your friend broke 2 engines the first at 1 bar on a CT9 is just highlighting how badly tuned they were. Half the Glanza's on this forum run 1 bar on a stock CT9 without ECU mod's at all, the fueling plays virtually NO part in the bend of rods at all. I could run a 12.5AFR at 1 bar of boost and not bend a rod!

Like I said before, I can imagine its hard to understand given your bad experiences but it can and IS done often, i'm sure it will sound ridiculous to you if you've had them fail at 160-170hp. :haha:

Out of interest, what fuel are you running? This also plays a big part, again no secrets and explaining why especially as it seems i'm wasting my fingers (breath).

:drive:

 

[Johnny_C]

run 95 ron.
id like to point out this was before i used emu,and since ive had the car mapped ive no problems with it.
as i said,its MY opinion that the glanza rods are rubbish past 1 bar,and i would never advise anyone to do it.

 

[Fatman]

Least 2 people on this thread know what there talking about

Why thank you Starbus

Cold hard facts don't seem to matter to Billybob or Johnny, it's nothing to do with me 'being right' It has been done, it worked and it lasted. When it eventually did fail it was nothing to do with the rods!

I've got nothing to prove, hell, I don't even have a glanza bottom end even more!

 

[Johnny_C]

Why thank you Starbus

Cold hard facts don't seem to matter to Billybob or Johnny, it's nothing to do with me 'being right' It has been done, it worked and it lasted. When it eventually did fail it was nothing to do with the rods!

I've got nothing to prove, hell, I don't even have a glanza bottom end even more!

facts?i dont need facts,ive had 1st hand experience.

 

[Phil]

i gota tell ya this mate!!!!
ya forgot the famous


PHIL:haha::haha::haha:

:haha:

lol yes slipped my mind

Phil

 

[Starbus]

run 95 ron.
id like to point out this was before i used emu,and since ive had the car mapped ive no problems with it.
as i said,its MY opinion that the glanza rods are rubbish past 1 bar,and i would never advise anyone to do it.

So you was running it on a stock ECU? 95 ron fuel and you blame the rods :haha:

facts?i dont need facts,ive had 1st hand experience.

You've had bad experiences and me and "Fatman" have explained why you had them.

Boost pressure is just a figure, it does nto determin the cylinder pressures or your power output!

 

[Johnny_C]

So you was running it on a stock ECU? 95 ron fuel and you blame the rods :haha:



You've had bad experiences and me and "Fatman" have explained why you had them.

Boost pressure is just a figure, it does nto determin the cylinder pressures or your power output!

fair dues,but i dont trust them,ive yet to see a gt kick a rod out.

 

[finx]

this thread is just as epic as the last one like it, i would contribute but fatman is basically regurgitating anything i would be saying so it would be like an echo in here, and still no one would be listening.

fair dues,but i dont trust them,ive yet to see a gt kick a rod out.

really? these are pics from an engine i was asked to replace. stock 4efte with GT rods, ct9 to much internal cylinder pressure and no tune = the bellow outcome

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7128/dsc00712mediumjx3.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3557/dscf8304mediumgz3.jpg

the rod snapped in two on initial spark btdc on the combustion stroke causing the piston to carry on upwards and mash the crown on the head and valves removing the valve cut out section in the process. the force was enough to also rip the gudgeon pin from the bottom of the piston and through both skirts, the bottom half of the rod careered around in its momentum, ripping a hole in both sides of the block and bending the crankshaft.

so you have now..

 

[Sheldon]

links not working finx

 

[Texx]

this thread is just as epic as the last one like it, i would contribute but fatman is basically regurgitating anything i would be saying so it would be like an echo in here, and still no one would be listening.

I can assure you people are listening, so any technical input won't be wasted.

How someone can think an extra 5-6psi of boost pressure on top of this 'safe' 1bar of boost is enough to bend or snap a conrod is beyond me, particularly when an instance of pre-ignition can easily double the pressure in a cylinder when it's on a compression stroke.

The problem is, people see a thin conrod and think "Well that's obviously the problem!", what they don't see is any pre-ignition or detonation from poor fuel quality or incorrect fuel or spark delivery that is smashing the shit out of the internal components of the engine. They can't 'see' what the ECU is doing, so there's no way it could be the cause of an engine failure.

I am always a little sceptical when people say their ECU has a 'good safe tune'. What does that really mean and how do they know it's so? Did the tuner tell them that? The same tuner they've just paid good money to, to map their ECU? The tuner isn't going to just turn round and say "I've done a crap job so don't be surprised when your engine blows up!" especially when there will be no comeback. If you've had to pay someone to map your ECU, then that likely means you won't be able to tell if they've mapped it correctly.

Going by what people have said, it's likely that the thicker stock EP82 conrods are stronger than the thinner EP91 conrods and so can take more abuse, but if a thin EP91 conrod is 'safe' at 1bar of boost, then is it more likely that the same conrod will fail purely by increasing the boost level by 5-6psi or would the cause of failure more likely be because the ECU hasn't correctly compensated for the 5-6psi increase resulting in severe detonation sending hammer like shock waves through the engine and then possibly leading to pre-ignition causing cylinder pressure to almost double?

 

[GT-TD04]

No offence to anyone in this thread but..

Everytime big boost is mentioned on stock internals everyone cries no,and when they're presented with a a reason as to why said person thinks it can be done once again "it just cant be done"

Is there no-one from this side of the world who can come on here and have a fully technical debate with the lads from malta etc where reasons are giving on both sides that stand up to the scrutiny of both debatees,because as i read over this thread there seems to be a lot more technical answers as to why it can be done as opposed to why it cant.

At least try to find the flaws in their theory's/ways of mapping them.

Im not trying to get on anyones back but between this thread and hardcoreep's we seem to have turned into people who know it all,were right ,your wrong and no,we dont have to explain ourselves.I prefered the days on the old forums when i could come on here and learn something new or have a argument where both sides would put forth technically sound posts and we could all benifit from reading it.

By the way,GaryGt took a bent rod out of my brothers engine,an ep82 rod.

Personally i do believe the GT rods are stronger,but hey,what do i know

Dan

 

[Phil]

and it was bent, not broken?

if so its the first ive ever heard of, but im happy to hear of it, only here for the info.

Phil

 

[GT-TD04]

and it was bent, not broken?

if so its the first ive ever heard of, but im happy to hear of it, only here for the info.

Phil

Like a bannana lol

I'll get a picture up for you later,still have it out in the shed