Sealed radiator with external surge tank . brain storming before i buy

[goldenvtr]

so im doing a whole new setup on the GT now that i have the legnum vr4 for my daily car and a 5 month old baby lol...

my GT will be pure track car for a few years now so im redoing alot of things:

rebuilt head with ARP bolts & higher CR @ 8.0.1 instead of 7.5.1 (still forged 5e)
td05 20G - replaced a 16g
600 x 300 x 76 intercooler with 2.5" alloy pipes -replaced a 300 x 300 x 54mm 2" pipes
3" turbo back exhuast - replaced a 2.5"
full polybush replacment - because racecar
link g3 ECU. - replaced emanage ultimate

all the above is now fitted and when i take it for mapping ill be hoping for very high 300's to possably 400 @ 1.8ish bar

only thing i have left to do is fit the new cooling system:

ive removed the 3" thick civic radiator as i don't like the idea of such a small surface area, and now my plan is to fit a closed system 680 x 380 x 52mm radiator just behind the intercooler which will be right in shot of the toms grille for better cooling effect and bigger surface area.
The downside to this is the top of the radiator no longer be the highest point in the cooling system, so i need to put a remote pressure cap or surge tank somewhere.

so has anyone done this before? or as im new to surge setup lets get some pics of cooling systems posted up for other refrences.

something like this is what im possably going for:

i highly recomend you spend the time to read if you genuinly intrested in running a better cooling system.

there is a quote in there that says something along the lines of (thickness is no match for surface area)


edit,

my research comes form here (credit where credit due)

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Cooling/#PhysicsandChemistry

and ive got some photos on page 2 of the project underway.... will update this thread with proper photos in a month or so when its all back together

 

[AdamB]

Ricky @ Race Tech done this on King Sock's glanza a little while ago mate, might be worth checking out his build thread.

 

[goldenvtr]

Ricky @ Race Tech done this on King Sock's glanza a little while ago mate, might be worth checking out his build thread.

Cool cheers, suppose ill take a trip over to the kids version of tgtt.com and have a look lol.

 

[Jay]

Just operates like the systems in 'normal' cars these days I take it Dan?

My mum's RX8 has a sealed rad with a plastic reservoir, so do the VAG's I've looked at so I'm guessing it'll be fine to run on the 4EFTE setup.

 

[goldenvtr]

Yea seems quite common on new cars jay ill check out some photo of rx8s /vag car for more ideas cheers!

after some browsing online seems quite common and widely used in race specd cars too
Cant wait to get the gt back on the track, did the last few in my Mazda...

Ill get some long over due pics of my car up soon, show all these newbs what the old bunch (me) can still do lol

Had a look at socks car too, wasn't what I was expecting as still has a civic sized rad, but the right idea for my plans surge tank wise.. Fair play to the guy for all the work done on his car but would be good to how it handles a full trackday. I was reading a thread the other day and there was a detailed descusione on how much heat is created per bhp and how much stress is put on cooling systems, got me worried about my setup hence the new plans.

 

[dac69er]

My mum's RX8

respect to your mum!

 

[AdamB]

Yea seems quite common on new cars jay ill check out some photo of rx8s /vag car for more ideas cheers!

after some browsing online seems quite common and widely used in race specd cars too
Cant wait to get the gt back on the track, did the last few in my Mazda...

Ill get some long over due pics of my car up soon, show all these newbs what the old bunch (me) can still do lol

Had a look at socks car too, wasn't what I was expecting as still has a civic sized rad, but the right idea for my plans surge tank wise.. Fair play to the guy for all the work done on his car but would be good to how it handles a full trackday. I was reading a thread the other day and there was a detailed descusione on how much heat is created per bhp and how much stress is put on cooling systems, got me worried about my setup hence the new plans.

I agree with that, one of the reasons Im unsure why people use such a small surface area when they track the car for extended flat out use.

 

[dac69er]

I agree with that, one of the reasons Im unsure why people use such a small surface area when they track the car for extended flat out use.

i guess its all down to room restrictions in the bay when you upgrade the turbo. civic rads are tried and tested and are easily available. just needs someone to try something different before others will start copying. civic rads do tend to cool sufficiently for most peoples cars though. I don't track my car, but I have no cooling issues, get nice constant temps.

 

[Jay]

Look at the HyperRevs - Nearly every build has a stock Toyota radiator supporting a big-ass turbo setup. Even the Pikachu EP is rolling stock.

Just to clash with that approach my JDM built 5E came in with a Civic rad but it's something that I would change if it was seeing proper track action. A few hot laps of Kirkistown brought the temps up a little high for my liking.

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Anyhow, I can see Dan's thinking. If you had a sealed radiator from a suitable donor vehicle you could mount it neatly where you needed it and place the expansion tank somewhere more accessible. It would remove the need for the radiator's top edge to remain exposed so you could almost treat it like a FMIC.

 

[AdamB]

i guess its all down to room restrictions in the bay when you upgrade the turbo. civic rads are tried and tested and are easily available. just needs someone to try something different before others will start copying. civic rads do tend to cool sufficiently for most peoples cars though. I don't track my car, but I have no cooling issues, get nice constant temps.

Thats true, but like Jay mentioned most of if not all the JDM demo cars use the full size rad, or the options for an alloy one from Sard/Zep, and they seem to use the Sard manifold as well which is stock rad friendly.

I had a civic rad on my old GT and that cooled sufficently well enough although like yourself it was just for road use.
Im not sure if its possible as it was something I was going to look into when I get round to putting my forged engine in, was to move the fmic as far forward as possible and to slip a full size rad infront of the top crash bar. Obviously AC will be sacrificed but most of us don't have it anyway.

 

[goldenvtr]

I'm liking this descussion, dontn get me wrong my civic rad has served me well, but once i moved out of 20 minute track sessions and intro open pit lane trackdays, my civic rad can only handle 20mins of flat out driving before the temps get over 115 and i have to chill down (oil temps stay fine with the oil cooler though), this is bassed on my old setup which was roughly 280bhp... saying that like other, ive never had an issue on the roads only witch extended track use.

given the chance again i would like a manifold thats stock rad friendly but i think the wepr manifold i have is fantastic and never let me down over 8years of abuse! so noway am i changing it, im confident with this new setup ill no only increase surface area but also about liter more coolant will be in the system.

ill have detailed photos as im sure for people not on such a tight budget this will be a much better solution to a civic rad especially for trackuse

iedit- ive just bough my chosen radiator so should be here for next weekend for some trial fitting

 

[goldenvtr]

whislt im browsing my photobucket though id post these up...

bairly any radiator in direct airline lol:

cant wait to show off the new setup



edit : some progress so far:
So a little update for those who may of been waiting lol

The car is nearly back in one peice, jsut waiting on a few more bits in the post then i can give a good steam clean and pain touchups.

quick rundown of what ive done in the last few weeks as an when i could

head gasket, arp headbolts, relocated external wastegate, spaced our manifold (welded another flange to space it out 10mm) so my td05 20g fits,

complete new radiator setup on the other side of the slam panel with custom brackets etc with slim fan and external surge tank. (bottom of tank joins into the heater return heading towards the watr pump)

begun to hide some engine bay wires but this still needs attention.

redone Fuel regulator setup - just wating some more AN fittings in the post.

fitted the td05 20g, bigger intercooler with 2" hotside and 2.5" cold piping., and the bov is on the hot side (the right place for it lol)

replaced all hoses with proper braided stuff.

and loads of other fiddle time consuming stuff but here some pics:

 

[Murray]

No wonder after 15mins your temps were over 115!
Rorys old GT never went above 95 degrees on track after 15mins of abuse? That used an alloy civic rad and 13 row oil cooler.

 

[AdamB]

You may want to take the fan off that rad mate, its on the wrong side lol. Effectively the fan is probably blocking 40% of the rad.

 

[Phil]

You may want to take the fan off that rad mate, its on the wrong side lol. Effectively the fan is probably blocking 40% of the rad.

i doubt it with dan, looks like a aircon or slimline fan which blows rather than pulls.

Looking forward to seeing everyones cooling solutions.

Ive gone alloy civic rad, and kept the turbo out of the system for the coolant.
and oil cooled only turbo and a mocal oil cooler without thermstat.

ill have to get some sensors to monitor both temps when i get it all together.

Phil

 

[Corey_gt]

i doubt it with dan, looks like a aircon or slimline fan which blows rather than pulls.

Looking forward to seeing everyones cooling solutions.

Ive gone alloy civic rad, and kept the turbo out of the system for the coolant.
and oil cooled only turbo and a mocal oil cooler without thermstat.

ill have to get some sensors to monitor both temps when i get it all together.

Phil

It would be wise to get a thermostat for that oil cooler.

 

[Phil]

i think i wouldnt run the cooler on the road, just on track where id hope the turbo keeps the oil up to temp ok.

but ill get sensors on and see whats happening when its all built.

Phil

 

[goldenvtr]

You may want to take the fan off that rad mate, its on the wrong side lol. Effectively the fan is probably blocking 40% of the rad.

very true lol, but the downpipe wouldn't allow the fan on the other size due size / meltage and push/pull shouldnt make to much diffrence when the fans on lol
GT hasnt been on the road for nearly a year now made the most of the 2 seater before baby was born but ive got a new slim fan to go with the new rad setup, and ill probly make a shroud too lol.


my oil cooler has a thermostat, but on the road i had to block it off with a cover as it wouldn't get up to temp still !
whats recomended about water cooling the turbo?? i only oil cooled my td05 16g and that was fine but i was going to add the waterlines back into my 20G for longer turbo life

 

[jayc-glanza17]

don't forget about core efficiency either..
I have just done a lot of work to my glanza around cooling..
just did a 35min session round brands, and my temps were fine 92c and didn't rise at all..

now the problem with a civic rad, is is sits not quite in centre of car, so about 15 to 20 per cent is blocked off by body work..
having a rad more central is an improvement straight away.

here is a few pics if my new set up...





frontal view, showing large portion of rad with no air blockage.



side view showing oil cooler location.



now the bottom part of my rad, the tank part, sits lower then the crash bar and intercooler, so that also gets direct cold air.

just showing you the ideas I had around position of cooling devices, and the little tips my tuner came up with to add to it..

all the alloy parts were made by pro alloy.

 

[jayc-glanza17]

also whilst on this topic, I found the cruise bonnet to be a very useful cooling tool, as air passes through radiator, it has an escape route..
this helps to stop heat build up as well..

and with cooling its more of a release of heat, think of it as a saucepan boiling water, lid on water heats up and goes everywhere, but if you move lid it takes longer, as warm air can escape..

so a larger surface will do this far better, but allowing the heat to escape will also be of benefit on track..

sorry to ramble on, but ita taken me 6 month to finally not get too hot on track..