Tuning For Torque?
- Thread starter Franza1
- Start date
gorganl2000
Lifer
maybe....we'll see how it goes...as u know.....depends on how things plan out...no rush at all.....lol
PS- i dont think it would be wise to put a hybrid ct9 on a 5e....lol
Adam_Glanza
Member +
it wouldnt do it any bad?
ok it wouldnt make as much power as you could but it would spool up fucking fast lol.
would be better with a td04 i suppose
ok it wouldnt make as much power as you could but it would spool up fucking fast lol.
would be better with a td04 i suppose
A few boys are on the right track. Fitting longer intake runners as someone said will help. As will not having too short an intake pipe.
We have to be careful here, people are jumping in saying TD04 etc gives big torque etc. Yes, yes they do because they make more power with lots of air being forced in! However, i think what franza wants is like me, instant pull from low down the rev range so you want a well matched turbo.
This is exactly why my plans are 5E with a garrett T25 (later GT25) at about 1 bar. Optimisticly im hoping for 250bhp, but boy should it pull well from low revs
What cams would you be recomending SX? As fitting bigger cams will only shift the power/torque higher up the rev range not what he wants.
There is always a lot of misconception when it comes to torque. Like the old claim that 8v are more torquey then 16v (ie the golf 1.8 8v and 16v, ren 19 8 and 16v etc)
The actual true is the 16v HAS MORE torque figure speaking, but the 8v has more of it lower down the rev range giving the impression of more torque.
We have to be careful here, people are jumping in saying TD04 etc gives big torque etc. Yes, yes they do because they make more power with lots of air being forced in! However, i think what franza wants is like me, instant pull from low down the rev range so you want a well matched turbo.
This is exactly why my plans are 5E with a garrett T25 (later GT25) at about 1 bar. Optimisticly im hoping for 250bhp, but boy should it pull well from low revs
What cams would you be recomending SX? As fitting bigger cams will only shift the power/torque higher up the rev range not what he wants.
There is always a lot of misconception when it comes to torque. Like the old claim that 8v are more torquey then 16v (ie the golf 1.8 8v and 16v, ren 19 8 and 16v etc)
The actual true is the 16v HAS MORE torque figure speaking, but the 8v has more of it lower down the rev range giving the impression of more torque.
more torque is not really want you want, you may want to reword the question
what you are after is more response. hp is just a product of a constant, torque and RPM. hence why a td04 will make more power, because the torque peak is higher in the RPM range.
anyway, longer intake runners will move the torque peak down the RPM range a bit, but the 4efe longer runner intake is quite restrictive (the 4efe's with them make peak power at 5500 rpm) so it might not work out.
generally higher air speed entering the cylinder will give better torque at low RPM but may choke up high. so aim for this.
cams of the right spec will definately help, you will be wanting something similar to stock duration, but with more lift i would think.
what you are after is more response. hp is just a product of a constant, torque and RPM. hence why a td04 will make more power, because the torque peak is higher in the RPM range.
anyway, longer intake runners will move the torque peak down the RPM range a bit, but the 4efe longer runner intake is quite restrictive (the 4efe's with them make peak power at 5500 rpm) so it might not work out.
generally higher air speed entering the cylinder will give better torque at low RPM but may choke up high. so aim for this.
cams of the right spec will definately help, you will be wanting something similar to stock duration, but with more lift i would think.
Dan3SGTE
Member +
All you really need is a turbo choice thats roughly between the performance of a CT9 and TD04
From what I've seen the K24 is the best of both worlds, or something identical compressor map wise.
Would be my choice over a stupid amount of power over a 1,000RPM range.
so dam true, agree all the way....
riko666
Member +
as Jezza, Slostar and GTti stated, those sorts of modifications would help - if you're looking to tune your vehicle for torque, as someone said on the first page, you're looking to increase air speed, i.e. increase the draw or "length" of air into the cylinders. One way to visualise this, and how to achieve it is, think of watering your plants with a hose pipe...bare with me....when you pinch the end of the pipe, the water comes out with more force as you're increasing it's velocity. The flow rate of the water however, is still the same (and is the value you want to increase if aiming for high power, hence why extreme porting, silly big turbos etc give such substantial horsepower gains) as you are not affecting the pressure of the water delivery through the pipe.
Now, why would a larger draw of air conspire to increase torque? Well, as you know in the combustion cycle, air comes into the cylinder with fuel charge, gets compressed, drives the piston down when it goes bang, then forces the air out - the part we're interested in is the power stroke. When the fuel/air mixture is ignited, the piston is forced down, turning the crankshaft - this motion creates a moment on the crankshaft as the connecting rod is acting down at a near perpendicular angle to the crankshaft journal, and as some may know, a moment (torque) is a force (the bang forcing the piston down) x distance (length on conrod) acting perpendicular to the direction of rotation. Anyway, waffled over, when you increase air velocity during the intake stroke, you are filling the cylinder more completely with more air (and hence, more fuel), and when it is compressed and ignited, the resulting force is much greater acting down on the piston, hence, generating a greater torque force. Taking that into account, horsepower (which is calculated off of torque) is the rate of this phenomena (hence the torque x 5252rpm forumula).
Now, it's not as simple as "pinching"...err...something that can be pinched in the engine bay, but rather finding ways of making the air increase in velocity - items such as longer runner manifolds invariably help as the air is being accelerated by the longer (and typically narrower) tract into the cylinder, certain turbos will help as well as they'll tend to cram air at a much greater rate as well as velocity. I remember I think it was "Dantheman's" Car, he got a crazy torque figure...and I think the explanation comes down to the turbo usage - a TD06 internals in a smaller TD05 housing, so you're cramming a huge flowrate through a smaller outlet, increasing the air speed. Increasing the compression ratio of an engine will also greatly help with torque because you are now compressing the same amount of air in the cylinder, into a smaller volume of the combustion chamber, hence creating a bigger/more powerful explosion at ignition, which drives the piston down harder. I'm presuming that this is the reason for the torquiness of Diesel engines - they just run silly compression ratios (to give an example, the Lexus IS220D Engine has the one of the lowest compression ratios of any diesel engine....at 15.8:1!! :homer, which on ignition of the compressed fuel air fix, drives down the piston at with an immense force. However, with such high compression ratios, Diesels can't (or it's safer not to) run big boost or higher revs, hence the limitation of horsepower.
Careful selection of exhaust manifolds, exhaust systems, intercooler piping and so on would also serve to help with the increasing of torque, as you can increase air velocity into the turbo (though ultimately, what comes out of the turbo is dependant on the flow map) and out of the turbo (and hence cylinders), as well as into the intake manifold via the Intercooler piping (hence why you typically see staggered dimensions for intercooler piping). Careful headwork would also be likely to help, especially in the intake ports - by roughing up the surface of the intake ports/tract, you're trying to create more of a swirl or disturbance of the air, which creates a better atomisation (mixture) of the fuel/air mixture, hence getting a more forceful bang (all this banging...so dirty) out of the mixture. Oh, and as rightfully said in the words of Adam (I expect a kiss back for this mention!) there truly is no replacement for displacement - by increasing the stroke of the 4E using the 5E parts, you are physically cramming a greater amount of air within the cylinders, hence creater a greater downward force on the piston in the power stroke.
Which ties in to Ricky's observation of High torque figures on the TMIC, well, the restrictive nature of the OEM TMIC would serve to reduce airflow and hence Horsepower potential, but when using a bigger turbo or just running more power through it, the restriction would serve to increase the airspeed of the air into the cylinders, giving the healthy torque figures. On the compression ratio point, it's a reason as to why the new breed of High Compression Ratio Turbo engines (like the Mini Cooper S/Peugeot 207 GTi engine) manage to create reasonable power but impressive torque figures with a small engine/turbo. They simply run huge (for a Forced Induction Petrol Engine) compression ratios - I think it's around 12:1! However, do not be fooled into thinking you can do the same...you can't, your engine will blow up to smithereens. In short, the Direct Injection Fuelling allows for a much greater atomisation of the fuel (due to the 1000+ Bar of fuel pressure :homer, i.e. the fuel turns into a vapour, soaking up the heat in the cylinders, and hence allowing for a greater resistance to detonation.
Phew....I need my coffee now
Now, why would a larger draw of air conspire to increase torque? Well, as you know in the combustion cycle, air comes into the cylinder with fuel charge, gets compressed, drives the piston down when it goes bang, then forces the air out - the part we're interested in is the power stroke. When the fuel/air mixture is ignited, the piston is forced down, turning the crankshaft - this motion creates a moment on the crankshaft as the connecting rod is acting down at a near perpendicular angle to the crankshaft journal, and as some may know, a moment (torque) is a force (the bang forcing the piston down) x distance (length on conrod) acting perpendicular to the direction of rotation. Anyway, waffled over, when you increase air velocity during the intake stroke, you are filling the cylinder more completely with more air (and hence, more fuel), and when it is compressed and ignited, the resulting force is much greater acting down on the piston, hence, generating a greater torque force. Taking that into account, horsepower (which is calculated off of torque) is the rate of this phenomena (hence the torque x 5252rpm forumula).
Now, it's not as simple as "pinching"...err...something that can be pinched in the engine bay, but rather finding ways of making the air increase in velocity - items such as longer runner manifolds invariably help as the air is being accelerated by the longer (and typically narrower) tract into the cylinder, certain turbos will help as well as they'll tend to cram air at a much greater rate as well as velocity. I remember I think it was "Dantheman's" Car, he got a crazy torque figure...and I think the explanation comes down to the turbo usage - a TD06 internals in a smaller TD05 housing, so you're cramming a huge flowrate through a smaller outlet, increasing the air speed. Increasing the compression ratio of an engine will also greatly help with torque because you are now compressing the same amount of air in the cylinder, into a smaller volume of the combustion chamber, hence creating a bigger/more powerful explosion at ignition, which drives the piston down harder. I'm presuming that this is the reason for the torquiness of Diesel engines - they just run silly compression ratios (to give an example, the Lexus IS220D Engine has the one of the lowest compression ratios of any diesel engine....at 15.8:1!! :homer
, which on ignition of the compressed fuel air fix, drives down the piston at with an immense force. However, with such high compression ratios, Diesels can't (or it's safer not to) run big boost or higher revs, hence the limitation of horsepower.Careful selection of exhaust manifolds, exhaust systems, intercooler piping and so on would also serve to help with the increasing of torque, as you can increase air velocity into the turbo (though ultimately, what comes out of the turbo is dependant on the flow map) and out of the turbo (and hence cylinders), as well as into the intake manifold via the Intercooler piping (hence why you typically see staggered dimensions for intercooler piping). Careful headwork would also be likely to help, especially in the intake ports - by roughing up the surface of the intake ports/tract, you're trying to create more of a swirl or disturbance of the air, which creates a better atomisation (mixture) of the fuel/air mixture, hence getting a more forceful bang (all this banging...so dirty) out of the mixture. Oh, and as rightfully said in the words of Adam (I expect a kiss back for this mention!) there truly is no replacement for displacement - by increasing the stroke of the 4E using the 5E parts, you are physically cramming a greater amount of air within the cylinders, hence creater a greater downward force on the piston in the power stroke.
Which ties in to Ricky's observation of High torque figures on the TMIC, well, the restrictive nature of the OEM TMIC would serve to reduce airflow and hence Horsepower potential, but when using a bigger turbo or just running more power through it, the restriction would serve to increase the airspeed of the air into the cylinders, giving the healthy torque figures. On the compression ratio point, it's a reason as to why the new breed of High Compression Ratio Turbo engines (like the Mini Cooper S/Peugeot 207 GTi engine) manage to create reasonable power but impressive torque figures with a small engine/turbo. They simply run huge (for a Forced Induction Petrol Engine) compression ratios - I think it's around 12:1! However, do not be fooled into thinking you can do the same...you can't, your engine will blow up to smithereens. In short, the Direct Injection Fuelling allows for a much greater atomisation of the fuel (due to the 1000+ Bar of fuel pressure :homer
, i.e. the fuel turns into a vapour, soaking up the heat in the cylinders, and hence allowing for a greater resistance to detonation.Phew....I need my coffee now
Last edited:
Adam_Glanza
Member +
riko you definetly deserved your kiss (K) mwah haha..
you certainly are a clever man! very well explained mate
should be stickied
you certainly are a clever man! very well explained mate
should be stickied
Adam_Glanza
Member +
lol joker
97'GlanzaVTurbo
Member +
Not sure if this is correct...but would upgrading your clutch help, in my new Glanza I have a 'High Pressure Sports Clutch' and as soon as you take the slightest bit of pressure off the clutch it pulls away, but it does cause quite alot of wheel spin throughout all the gears, whats the best way to fix that?Also clutch makes grinding noise when pushed in, i was told this is normal is it? Thanks Christy
riko666
Member +
Well, it's true to a point - more of the torque would be transferred through the wheels rather than be lost through a slipping clutch disc. How do you fix the wheelspin? Get rid of the lead in your right shoe
And what clutch have you got? Grinding could be normal, or could be your release bearing being a bit worn, but in both scenarios its more of a rattling sound
And what clutch have you got? Grinding could be normal, or could be your release bearing being a bit worn, but in both scenarios its more of a rattling sound
97'GlanzaVTurbo
Member +
Lol aye that could be true. But in my other Glanza it has no problem with wheel spin.haha.
Not sure of the make of clutch just know that its a 'High Pressure Sports Clutch'.lol. The boy I bought it off in Japan I would recommend (Monky's Inc) and he has assured me that its normal for that clutch and sent me a video of a Skyline he has with the same problem and I have to agree they sound identical.
Yeah with the different clutch you difinitely feel more power to the wheels. The new one is very fast not sure of all the mods to it, as soon as I register it taking it to a dyno to find out BHP/Torque and build it up from there. But already some good mods done on it. Thanks Christy
Not sure of the make of clutch just know that its a 'High Pressure Sports Clutch'.lol. The boy I bought it off in Japan I would recommend (Monky's Inc) and he has assured me that its normal for that clutch and sent me a video of a Skyline he has with the same problem and I have to agree they sound identical.
Yeah with the different clutch you difinitely feel more power to the wheels. The new one is very fast not sure of all the mods to it, as soon as I register it taking it to a dyno to find out BHP/Torque and build it up from there. But already some good mods done on it. Thanks Christy
Sound Per4mance VI
Member +
bump