Water injection plus water intercooler
- Thread starter Gat187
- Start date
I've heard its a bit of a myth that a water-air (chargecooler) is more efficient than an air-air intercooler. The only reason why a chargecooler is used is if space is limited.
You can with some kits as far as I know have more than 1 jet, so you could place a jet before the turbo compressor, this will cool the air and increase the turbo's efficiency, meaning you could raise the boost an extra 0.2 bar without the added drawbacks of adding heat to the charge.
You can with some kits as far as I know have more than 1 jet, so you could place a jet before the turbo compressor, this will cool the air and increase the turbo's efficiency, meaning you could raise the boost an extra 0.2 bar without the added drawbacks of adding heat to the charge.
@ adam If its .2 thats about 1 hp at 15 psi so the power loss due to the weight of carrying water would be more than the gain.
@ weeJohn now you have got me thinking about gains made in the intercooler - water is 24x more heat conductive than air a little water could make a difference.
air at 100% humidity vs 0% humidity 30degC is .019kg/mcubed less dense or 1.63% of dry air as rough idea of feasibility if we allow 40% effeciency for this water mass in the air at 24x heat transfer ( 1.63x.4x24 ) gives 15.65% would add to the intercooler air efficiency say 60% intercooler becomes 75% efficient .
Now typically at 30dec intake temp and 15psi on a ct9 this would add up to 8 hp less the density reducition in oxygen due to the lighter water molecules 2.6 hp gives a 5.4 hp gain. If the water injected was 5deg C cooler then this would offset the density loss and it would be back to a 8hp gain.I see what you are saying but what happens if you go over 100% humidity does water build up in the intercooler , do you start to lose power or does the car turn into a steam engine and gain torque?
@Gat187 I guess with cooler water you may have more gains especially in hotter climate or with bigger turbo and higher boost. Also I read this can suppress detonation which is very good especially with poor fuel etc.
If you are you at the limits with your setup , need to control heat or det for saftey , are above 20psi or are an auto where high boost is needed to boost low end torque then IMO it sounds good but just for power maybe a bigger cooler turbo is a simpler option?
@ weeJohn now you have got me thinking about gains made in the intercooler - water is 24x more heat conductive than air a little water could make a difference.
air at 100% humidity vs 0% humidity 30degC is .019kg/mcubed less dense or 1.63% of dry air as rough idea of feasibility if we allow 40% effeciency for this water mass in the air at 24x heat transfer ( 1.63x.4x24 ) gives 15.65% would add to the intercooler air efficiency say 60% intercooler becomes 75% efficient .
Now typically at 30dec intake temp and 15psi on a ct9 this would add up to 8 hp less the density reducition in oxygen due to the lighter water molecules 2.6 hp gives a 5.4 hp gain. If the water injected was 5deg C cooler then this would offset the density loss and it would be back to a 8hp gain.I see what you are saying but what happens if you go over 100% humidity does water build up in the intercooler , do you start to lose power or does the car turn into a steam engine and gain torque?
@Gat187 I guess with cooler water you may have more gains especially in hotter climate or with bigger turbo and higher boost. Also I read this can suppress detonation which is very good especially with poor fuel etc.
If you are you at the limits with your setup , need to control heat or det for saftey , are above 20psi or are an auto where high boost is needed to boost low end torque then IMO it sounds good but just for power maybe a bigger cooler turbo is a simpler option?
Last edited:
Rev,
I do agree that carrying the water will hinder performance somewhat. But adding a little more boost isn't necessarily where you gain performance. You will see more of a gain due to being able to increase ignition advance due to the cooler air. Cooler air + More Ignition advance= more power. The AFR plays a very small part in terms of gaining power, infact changing from 11.8-13.00 AFR will change peak power output by 1%.
Also don't forget that compressing air induces heat, therefore adding water before the turbo will increase its efficency, meaning you can increase boost without adding extra heat. Or if you wanted to stay at the same boost 15psi, you could increase ignition advance. You may not make more peak hp for it to be worth it, but you may gain quite a bit in mid range torque, which can be useful depending on what you use the car for.
I do agree that carrying the water will hinder performance somewhat. But adding a little more boost isn't necessarily where you gain performance. You will see more of a gain due to being able to increase ignition advance due to the cooler air. Cooler air + More Ignition advance= more power. The AFR plays a very small part in terms of gaining power, infact changing from 11.8-13.00 AFR will change peak power output by 1%.
Also don't forget that compressing air induces heat, therefore adding water before the turbo will increase its efficency, meaning you can increase boost without adding extra heat. Or if you wanted to stay at the same boost 15psi, you could increase ignition advance. You may not make more peak hp for it to be worth it, but you may gain quite a bit in mid range torque, which can be useful depending on what you use the car for.
azerty
Supermoderator
water injection will be much more efficient than air air or water air intercooler anyway.
I realised that when you got water injection, you could keep standard TMIC setup and you would still be more efficient than any FMIC setup on their own
Figures talks more than theory. so here is my feed back. (keep in mind I live in tropic hot weather)
I have a FMIC plus an aquamist HFS-3
I have done few maps.
when I use fuel map only (aquamist off). When I use push the car around, I get AIT beween 48-52° C. when crusing around AIT is between 40-48°C over
Now if I switch Aquamist on using 50:50 watermeth sprayed at 20% vs fuel. when pushing the car, I get AIT between 23-28°C. so it is just half the temp without aquamist.
as I don't spray water only. I get massive gain on ignition aswell. our fuel is around RON93. my HFS-3 starts spraying at 0.6 bar
here is a lil chart showing ignition gain with water meth injection vs fuel only
those figure were archived using one 0.8 jet after the FMIC
I have tried to add a small 0.3 jet just before turbo compressor on my previous turbo kit. this is supposed to help producing cooler air staight into the compressor, so it means more air molecule in same volume. I didn't feel much difference to be honest. theoricaly it is a plus. It didn't damage compressor impeler at all. so you can try it out if you wish. it is safe to play with.
ATM I using two 0.6 jets after my FMIC. it gives better safety and keep EGT 50°C lower
I realised that when you got water injection, you could keep standard TMIC setup and you would still be more efficient than any FMIC setup on their own
Figures talks more than theory. so here is my feed back. (keep in mind I live in tropic hot weather)
I have a FMIC plus an aquamist HFS-3
I have done few maps.
when I use fuel map only (aquamist off). When I use push the car around, I get AIT beween 48-52° C. when crusing around AIT is between 40-48°C over
Now if I switch Aquamist on using 50:50 watermeth sprayed at 20% vs fuel. when pushing the car, I get AIT between 23-28°C. so it is just half the temp without aquamist.
as I don't spray water only. I get massive gain on ignition aswell. our fuel is around RON93. my HFS-3 starts spraying at 0.6 bar
here is a lil chart showing ignition gain with water meth injection vs fuel only
those figure were archived using one 0.8 jet after the FMIC
I have tried to add a small 0.3 jet just before turbo compressor on my previous turbo kit. this is supposed to help producing cooler air staight into the compressor, so it means more air molecule in same volume. I didn't feel much difference to be honest. theoricaly it is a plus. It didn't damage compressor impeler at all. so you can try it out if you wish. it is safe to play with.
ATM I using two 0.6 jets after my FMIC. it gives better safety and keep EGT 50°C lower
Last edited:
gorganl2000
Lifer
i agree with azerty
just use a normal fmic with the WI set up tuned properly
it will help with your intake temps in the hot climate....reduce chance of detonation...reduce EGTs....etc
which system do you plan to go with?
do you plan to run water AND methanol or water only?
if you tune your car for WI, make sure to have a safety feature that will save your engine if the WI system fails...sometimes there is a reason for the higher costs of some WI systems
So you're saying that WI plus W2AI is unnecessary or an overkill?
water injection will be much more efficient than air air or water air intercooler anyway.
I realised that when you got water injection, you could keep standard TMIC setup and you would still be more efficient than any FMIC setup on their own
Figures talks more than theory. so here is my feed back. (keep in mind I live in tropic hot weather)
I have a FMIC plus an aquamist HFS-3
I have done few maps.
when I use fuel map only (aquamist off). When I use push the car around, I get AIT beween 48-52° C. when crusing around AIT is between 40-48°C over
Now if I switch Aquamist on using 50:50 watermeth sprayed at 20% vs fuel. when pushing the car, I get AIT between 23-28°C. so it is just half the temp without aquamist.
as I don't spray water only. I get massive gain on ignition aswell. our fuel is around RON93. my HFS-3 starts spraying at 0.6 bar
here is a lil chart showing ignition gain with water meth injection vs fuel only
those figure were archived using one 0.8 jet after the FMIC
I have tried to add a small 0.3 jet just before turbo compressor on my previous turbo kit. this is supposed to help producing cooler air staight into the compressor, so it means more air molecule in same volume. I didn't feel much difference to be honest. theoricaly it is a plus. It didn't damage compressor impeler at all. so you can try it out if you wish. it is safe to play with.
ATM I using two 0.6 jets after my FMIC. it gives better safety and keep EGT 50°C lower
gorganl2000
Lifer
http://www.toyotagtturbo.com/forums/showthread.php?101572-methanol-stock-internal-20psi
read that tread....near the bottom mr2's response
read that tread....near the bottom mr2's response
azerty
Supermoderator
there is no point to go for WI+ W2AI in my opinion as you would not get any gain.
the smalest air/air intercooler you could get in addition of a WI will be the best option.
when it comes to which kit to choose.
in my opinion there is only two options :
- single stage mode. any brand would do (as long as it can spray a good mist). it is simple and it works very well. this is what was used in WRC 10 years ago before FIA decided do forbiden this device in 2006
- progressive system which keep constant WI ratio vs fuel. on this side only Aquamist can do that ATM. HFS-3 beeing your best bet in the range as in include all false safe you would need.
I would stay clear from any kit changing pump speed to follow fuel flow. this won't be accurate, capacity to change flow range will be very small. you definitly need a Fast acting valve working like your fuel injectors to archive this task. Aquamist do it well. Coolingmist has a kit with high speed valve as well. but it does'nt read IDC to control it, so in my opinion it is still not as good as aquamist kits. HF-S serie read Fuel injector duty cycle, and replicate on the WI Fast active valve, which guaranty you same WI % injected vs Fuel whatever the boost and RPM you are.
Last edited:
gorganl2000
Lifer
yeah, aquamist is seen as the best and it comes at a cost......however, in my opinion if you want a proper WI system where your engine's life depends on it, then this is the system to get
the other systems are ok depending on what you use them for
the other systems are ok depending on what you use them for