300whp Jamaica style
- Thread starter hardcoreep
- Start date
KrissyB
Member +
seems in the picture with the 5e build your running standerd gasket for this 300 build
if i knew i could run 300whp NOT BHP thats WHP here guys with a Stock 5e bottom and stock 4e head....... Id have save 5grand.
Didn' think a td0516g was even capable of that let alone on a stock motor
billybob
Untrusted Seller
Jay
Admin
I think that's best for all concerned mate.
Now, before we go any further I am heavily intrigued by the horsepower figures quoted from other lands. I can see I'm not alone in this respect.
This is a rare opportunity to see such a build in detail and I would greatly appreciate it if we could all keep it civil. I rank Rory as one of our more knowledgable and experienced members and have every faith he will answer everyone's technical questions along the journey.
It's not just this early stage we want to see, it's the full story.
Jay
hardcoreep
Member +
One of the questions I get often from GT Turbo is "how much boost can I run?" This has long led me to believe that most on this site don't understand how a turbocharger works. The comment that a td05-16g can't produce 300whp, further confirms the level of understanding of many members. These are the same people who cant believe a CT9 can't make X amount of power.
Boost is an irrelevant concept many times in these discussions. All turbochargers make boost. What makes a CT9 at 10psi make less power than a td05-16g at 10psi isn't boost, its CFM. The CFM rating is the airflow rating of a turbocharger. You need to know this when getting a turbocharger. That CFM determines how much air the turbo can move at maximum, which in turn can tell you how much power it can make. CFM = airflow = air available to make power. Most companies list the max CFM of their turbocharger. So for people to determine that X turbo cant make X power without even looking/understanding the specifications of a turbocharger or basing it off boost pressure is just silly.
Now, I'm not going to claim brilliance because the reason I know how this works is because a)I discussed this with a turbo expert years ago in relation to the CT9 b)he recommended the Maximum Boost book to me which explains it all, mathematically. When you have a turbocharger there are two options for power production 1)Increase boost on stock turbocharger till you reach or near the edge of the compressor efficiency 2)Get a higher flowing turbocharger. Simple and basic, but you've got to understand how the the numbers on a turbocharger work.
As far as I know, no one here has ever seen a CT9 compressor map, so I often ask on what basis do people believe that the CT9 is blowing hot air at 15psi. The truth is the same reason we're having this discussion, a friend told you, or you heard it somewhere. So this now comes down to who you believe. The UK tuner who cant get past 133whp because he keeps telling you the CT9 is useless at 15psi, or the JDM tuner who hits 172whp at the same psi because he has measured the outlet temps and figured out that 15psi is smack dab in the middle of the efficiency range of that turbocharger. And if you've ever looked at a compressor map you can easily see how wide the peak efficiency island is for a turbocharger.
Fortunately, we do have specs on the MHI td05-16g. The small td05-16g is rated at 520cfm, using MHI 1bar/60% efficiency rating. The larger td05-16g is rated at 580cfm. According to the manufacturer specifications that's enough airflow for 350bhp. If you count in the 10% loss for wheel hp, that's still over 300whp. This is also not an absolute, but a rough figure not taking into consideration the Volumetric Efficiency of the host engine. The better or worse the VE of the engine is will determine what side of that figure you end up on. The td04L is rated at 250hp for its flow rating. However, like i said, I've seen cars on the low side of that, and others on the high side. There was a beautiful example of the latter in GT a few years back where they churned out 278whp. I just read that Magazine article where Dave tuned a EP91 to similar figures.
I do not use boost to make power, so to speak. What I do is try and get the turbocharger into its maximum efficiency island and tune from there. Why? Because that peak island is where the turbocharger is making the least hot air, that would possibly reduce power. On page 2 I put up the compressor map for the turbocharger being used and gave the specifications in relation to the tune there. The common UK trend is simply to just keep turning up the boost which will most likely move the turbo into the more inefficient areas of its flow, ie: more heat from the compression function.
My only concern with this build is the management the owner is using. Due to costs he's opted for the Microtech, a system, poorly supported, and that hasn't proved itself well here in Jamaica, or from other comments elsewhere in the Caribbean. I don't believe the Microtech can handle what we are going to throw at it. However, due to its reputation, no-one is going to buy it from us and the owner has opted to struggle with it rather than purchase an eManage Ultimate.
Boost is an irrelevant concept many times in these discussions. All turbochargers make boost. What makes a CT9 at 10psi make less power than a td05-16g at 10psi isn't boost, its CFM. The CFM rating is the airflow rating of a turbocharger. You need to know this when getting a turbocharger. That CFM determines how much air the turbo can move at maximum, which in turn can tell you how much power it can make. CFM = airflow = air available to make power. Most companies list the max CFM of their turbocharger. So for people to determine that X turbo cant make X power without even looking/understanding the specifications of a turbocharger or basing it off boost pressure is just silly.
Now, I'm not going to claim brilliance because the reason I know how this works is because a)I discussed this with a turbo expert years ago in relation to the CT9 b)he recommended the Maximum Boost book to me which explains it all, mathematically. When you have a turbocharger there are two options for power production 1)Increase boost on stock turbocharger till you reach or near the edge of the compressor efficiency 2)Get a higher flowing turbocharger. Simple and basic, but you've got to understand how the the numbers on a turbocharger work.
As far as I know, no one here has ever seen a CT9 compressor map, so I often ask on what basis do people believe that the CT9 is blowing hot air at 15psi. The truth is the same reason we're having this discussion, a friend told you, or you heard it somewhere. So this now comes down to who you believe. The UK tuner who cant get past 133whp because he keeps telling you the CT9 is useless at 15psi, or the JDM tuner who hits 172whp at the same psi because he has measured the outlet temps and figured out that 15psi is smack dab in the middle of the efficiency range of that turbocharger. And if you've ever looked at a compressor map you can easily see how wide the peak efficiency island is for a turbocharger.
Fortunately, we do have specs on the MHI td05-16g. The small td05-16g is rated at 520cfm, using MHI 1bar/60% efficiency rating. The larger td05-16g is rated at 580cfm. According to the manufacturer specifications that's enough airflow for 350bhp. If you count in the 10% loss for wheel hp, that's still over 300whp. This is also not an absolute, but a rough figure not taking into consideration the Volumetric Efficiency of the host engine. The better or worse the VE of the engine is will determine what side of that figure you end up on. The td04L is rated at 250hp for its flow rating. However, like i said, I've seen cars on the low side of that, and others on the high side. There was a beautiful example of the latter in GT a few years back where they churned out 278whp. I just read that Magazine article where Dave tuned a EP91 to similar figures.
I do not use boost to make power, so to speak. What I do is try and get the turbocharger into its maximum efficiency island and tune from there. Why? Because that peak island is where the turbocharger is making the least hot air, that would possibly reduce power. On page 2 I put up the compressor map for the turbocharger being used and gave the specifications in relation to the tune there. The common UK trend is simply to just keep turning up the boost which will most likely move the turbo into the more inefficient areas of its flow, ie: more heat from the compression function.
My only concern with this build is the management the owner is using. Due to costs he's opted for the Microtech, a system, poorly supported, and that hasn't proved itself well here in Jamaica, or from other comments elsewhere in the Caribbean. I don't believe the Microtech can handle what we are going to throw at it. However, due to its reputation, no-one is going to buy it from us and the owner has opted to struggle with it rather than purchase an eManage Ultimate.
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hardcoreep
Member +
Let me also comment on the "how much boost can I run?"
You can run as much boost as you want until a) the turbocharger goes supersonic b) until you reach the mechnical limits of the turbocharger or the engine.
Point B is very important because its not generally boost that will kill your engine, its detonation. You can run as much boost as you want for as long as you want as long as the engine doesn't detonate. The second it pings, its the shockwave from that process that will break the piston or cause bearings to fail. That's not a function directly of the boost. Its how good the tune has been to maintain the optimum a/f ratio given the circumstances. What forged internals do, in most cases, is mask poor tuning. Your car is still probably detonating, but because the stuff is stronger it just shrugs off the shocks, to a point.
The other thing is, you don't have to believe me, which is the point of this post. I am not screaming superiority, just trying to inform.
You can run as much boost as you want until a) the turbocharger goes supersonic b) until you reach the mechnical limits of the turbocharger or the engine.
Point B is very important because its not generally boost that will kill your engine, its detonation. You can run as much boost as you want for as long as you want as long as the engine doesn't detonate. The second it pings, its the shockwave from that process that will break the piston or cause bearings to fail. That's not a function directly of the boost. Its how good the tune has been to maintain the optimum a/f ratio given the circumstances. What forged internals do, in most cases, is mask poor tuning. Your car is still probably detonating, but because the stuff is stronger it just shrugs off the shocks, to a point.
The other thing is, you don't have to believe me, which is the point of this post. I am not screaming superiority, just trying to inform.
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to be honest, wether his methods are the same or different from ours he certainly knows what he is talking about and instead of people questioning him and doubting his results alot of the people on here could use his expertise, i know i could.
please carry on with the build mate and some more useful info
please carry on with the build mate and some more useful info
www.glanza.co.uk
Super Mod (極度の調整器)
So, we have a well established member being open and honest about all aspects of a build, and half of the thread is taken up with shite about 'I don't believe you' comments. It takes time and effort to put up posts like this, and a little more respect for the effort would be nice.
There have been a few threads affected in this way recently, and it annoys me that we seem to have gone from a helpful community to a big-headed one. Some of you on here may well have gotten big horsepower figures with big budgets, but that doesn't mean you are now the undisputed kings on the subject, and must challenge all new comers to the ring in a bullish nature. If you don't agree, why not ask questions about the build in a civil manner? Simply saying that 'I don't believe you' is both rude and childish, and doesn't help anyone.
There have been a few threads affected in this way recently, and it annoys me that we seem to have gone from a helpful community to a big-headed one. Some of you on here may well have gotten big horsepower figures with big budgets, but that doesn't mean you are now the undisputed kings on the subject, and must challenge all new comers to the ring in a bullish nature. If you don't agree, why not ask questions about the build in a civil manner? Simply saying that 'I don't believe you' is both rude and childish, and doesn't help anyone.
im with u guys, too many people on here have started to turn up thier noses to the less lucky ones who dont have a fortune to mod there cars and do it thier own way, seems like we are turniong into a bunch of stuck liner drivers
p.s liners was purely a rince i say skyline usually
p.s liners was purely a rince i say skyline usually
Fatman
Member +
Both in that other thread I posted extensively in that was mentioned earlier and in this it seems we're getting a few very hot headed 'mainlanders' who, it seems to me, are just pissed off they potentially 'wasted' a lot of money.
Hardcoreep is a very knowledgeable guy and it sounds like we share a lot of opinions on the science of tuning, a topic I've discovered is virtually limitless in depth. I'm really enjoying his contributions and look forward to him further documenting his progress.
As a show of respect, could people at least keep a civil tone when questioning his claims. Keep a cool head and you might just learn something.
Hardcoreep is a very knowledgeable guy and it sounds like we share a lot of opinions on the science of tuning, a topic I've discovered is virtually limitless in depth. I'm really enjoying his contributions and look forward to him further documenting his progress.
As a show of respect, could people at least keep a civil tone when questioning his claims. Keep a cool head and you might just learn something.
Killamats
Registered Trader <a href="http://www.toyotagtturb
lol what would you know if you never been here and seen it??
The next time you are at SantaPod, check with the office what are the best ETs, that cars, trucks and bikes from Malta have done at SantaPod. They're always personal bests, and its obvious..your track is much better I've seen it with my own eyes last month when I was there.
Anyways, I wont go off topic .. but I wish to say Rory (hardcoreep) is a very knowledgeable guy especially on Starlets, he has helped me considerably in the past, indirectly through his website and info ..and has been fiddling with 4E/5Es much more than all of us have. Over here in Malta, we have a completely different way of tuning (compression wise, turbos etc etc) but I respect his ways and there is always stuff to learn. Show some respect lads we are lucky guys like Rory are still around
GTti
Member +
Well I have to disagree slightly, boost is relevant because compressing air generates heat. The more boost, the most likely the shaft is spinning at a higher RPM. Temperature is one of the single most important aspects in relation to air density, the lower temperature means a greater 'mass' of air within the same volume (CFM if you like) can be achieved.
EDIT: The above is also a very good reason to reduce any pressure drop were possible, such as in the intake system (Intercooler, hoses, filters). Reducing pressure drops by a couple of PSI can have a massive difference.
I agree with you here, I have always defended the CT9 and many smaller turbochargers. They are rather ideal for the majority of UK driving too, ideal for engine response and accleration. The limits of these smaller turbochargers is simply because of the reasons I've touched on above. But lets not turn this into a UK v elsewhere war, we have a different and much larger road network, we have traffic and more importantly customers are in a stronger position if something were to go wrong in the short term.
I'm sure Microtech allow an upgrade of mappable points which allow a much better interpolation, the basic units are pretty standard. Not a fan of the 'live mapping', it feels very dangerous, hah. Pop over to the Microtech forums for info http://www.microtechefi.com/forum/.
Good effort with the write up, and good luck with the car.
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Fatman
Member +
Just had to respond to this post. High cr boosted motors are nothing new and nothing extraordinary. A high compression ratio just makes tuning more difficult.
Guys in the states are running sizeable turbos and serious boost on stock internal 5e-fhe's, Finx is running a CT9 on a stock 5e-fhe (with good results)
I intend to be running some reasonable boost on a stock 5e soon enough, if I take photos of the build process, post my tune, post a dyno video and a 1/4mile slip are you going to believe me? Probably not.
Here's a video of a guy making 701WHP on an 11.5:1 compression 2 litre motor @ 25+psi with a stock head gasket, stock intake etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQst99sHUsc
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AdDaMan
Member +
Some people need to have a bit more respect.
Rory is one of the pioneers of starlet tuning and his website and expertise have helped alot of people way before most of you guys hade even seen a starlet before.
Just remember you aint the only ones who have built big power starlets.
Rory is one of the pioneers of starlet tuning and his website and expertise have helped alot of people way before most of you guys hade even seen a starlet before.
Just remember you aint the only ones who have built big power starlets.