4E vs 5E

Discussion in 'Modification/ Technical Questions' started by Djaniero, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. Djaniero

    Djaniero Registered User +

    Guys, I ve been reading some old 5e threads on here - learnt a hell of a lot from them - and seriously thinking whether or not to slowly build up a 5e engine for my GT.

    I'm currently on a freshly rebuilt stock 4efte and TD04 low boost setup, which will be going in for a remap soon on me221.

    But I just wanted to get some input from people who had driven both the 4E and 5E engines, preferly with a TD04 setup, to see if there was a huge enough difference between the two. I'm not really bothered about dyno figures, I'm more curious to know how a 5E TD04 drives out on the road. Obviously the 5E will have more torque but is this massively noticeable?

    Thanks for any input.
     
  2. SKINY

    SKINY Registered User +

    Said to drive better off boost compared, I can only guess that's the extra torques buddy :)
     
  3. Jay

    Jay Admin

    In my experience the 5E generates quite a noticeable amount of torque low down as you get on the throttle. I'm not saying that the 4E is lacking here but the 5E certainly gets onto the power earlier and this translates to an easier to use power range. They drive a bit better, especially off boost.

    Outright power isn't much different so don't feel that you are missing out on serious horsepower in that respect.
     
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  4. Djaniero

    Djaniero Registered User +

    Thanks for the input lads.
    I use my Gt quite often, so having some extra torque on the road would always be a bonus.
    How much should I expect to pay these days for a 5E block?
     
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  5. SKINY

    SKINY Registered User +

    137 ft/lbs mine made on the dyno and 142hp:cool:
     
  6. gorganl2000

    gorganl2000 Registered User +

    i've driven both. 4e with ct9, td04l and hibrid td04l. 5e with ct9, td04l, vf series, etc
    i my experience the 5e is the better engine for daily driving and producing torque, its a noticeable difference on and off boost,
    let's put it this way, after driving my friend's 5efte ct9 gt back in the early 2000s, i always knew i was going 5e at some point from then on...i eventually went 5e in 2007/2008 and have not looked back since...i will never build another 4efte for myself

    however, if you want a car to rev really high, then the 4e may be better as the 5e as it will have lower piston/rod speed

    PS, the 5e td04l combination as a daily is great, its responsive, torquey and makes decent power 200/250bhp easily..if i remember correctly, you build boost from about 2000/2500rpm and it starts to drops off just approaching redline (6000/6500rpm),,,this i more than enough for a daily
     
  7. wickedep

    wickedep Registered Trader

    someone should sticky these 4e vs. 5e threads hehe.

    Go 5e .. you will not regret it one bit. on a td04L ...the response and torque will be awesome for a road car.
     
  8. Djaniero

    Djaniero Registered User +

    Thanks guys.
    Would I be ok to boost a stock 5E, or would I be better off using forged rods with my 4efte pistons? I got a bit confused whether or not it was the rods or the pistons that were the weak link with the 5E
    I don't want to rev Honda high, but having the same 4efte rev limit would be cool if possible?
     
  9. Jay

    Jay Admin

    Fit the 4EFTE pistons to the 5E rods.
     
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  10. Djaniero

    Djaniero Registered User +

    How much is the going rate for a 5e this days Jay. Not really seen any on this side of the water lately.
     
  11. Jay

    Jay Admin

    About £100 more than the Paseo that it's been ripped from usually..

    Easy option is to find a Paseo that's out of MOT and hit them with an offer. At least that way you have the fun of tearing the engine out yourself.
     
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  12. gorganl2000

    gorganl2000 Registered User +

    depends on so many variables
    5efe vs 5efhe,,,,the 5efhe has stronger rods and takes boost and revs better in stock form than a 5efe
    you can do as Jay said and use 4efte pistons with 5efhe rods
    whether keeping the 5e stock or forged, you will need to get a piggyback or standlaone, the set up will need to be tuned
    5efhe rods can rev to stock 4efte limiter at 7200rpm,,,,, if you want to run revs at 7500/8500rpm, get forged rods
     
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  13. Djaniero

    Djaniero Registered User +

    Cool. I'll keep my eyes peeled to see what comes up.


    So ideally I need to find a 5efhe if I don't want to go forged. What sort of figures would I be looking at roughly with the 5efhe with a TD04 setup? I have pretty much all the supporting mods on my 4e already Inc. Me221 standalone... Just not fitted yet.
     
  14. wickedep

    wickedep Registered Trader

    people tend to ask more for FHE block. 5efe block would be much cheaper.

    FHE rods are stronger, but even FE rods will easily handle 300bhp (stock rev limit). the 4efte pistons are the weak point.

    if using 4e pistons/fhe-fe rods..you can safely run around 250-260bhp (around 1.2-1.3bar on a td04L).

    if budget permits ... install forged pistons/rods+ecu ... crank the boost up and enjoy.
     
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  15. Djaniero

    Djaniero Registered User +

    Thanks bro. Even in this day and age, if you suggest boosting a stock block engine to 300bhp, to many UK tuners, they will most definitely have a heart attack lol.
     
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  16. wickedep

    wickedep Registered Trader

    hahah...
     
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  17. SKINY

    SKINY Registered User +

    Yea from reading up everyone here sais above 250hp you need to be forged, I'm only hoping for 200/220 with the tf035 so not bothered just yet :)
     
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  18. SWJ

    SWJ Member

    Well first I have to say ... I have not been there and done that! So yeah an as they say "talk is cheap!" but I, suppose I;m an old timer now?? But I was there back in the day when Tercelonline ... was KING of the hill for all things 4efte/5efte and those guys were making 300 hp with ASI (All Stock Internals) with either 4efte or 5efte's!

    And GT Reva, for one said all you needed was a good tune and an E Manage blue for engine management! And the APEXI and FCD, stuff was well documented (at the time) for blowing crap up! That's all I knows. I just followed and listened. As at the time I was big into suspension stuff! And I somehow managed to spend a lot of time in "Court" with my little old 84 hp at the flywheel (smoke blowing 3ee.) Little puppy had nothing for power ... but if I got to corner first ... Good Luck getting by me, few did. :)

    And yep there were a lot of high dollar 4efte and 5efte builds on there making a lot less then 300 hp?? And lot of them blew up?? So you know ... WTH??

    Aww well moving on ... as a general rule a 1.4 inch stroke increase is worth about a 30 percent increase in engine torque. So 4efte vs 5efte will net that much easy! And the assorted rods ... well they say (ASI) is good for 300 hp??
    If that is true ... it really does not matter (what rods) as long as you don't get engine knock, you wont blow ring lands and bend rods! So they said ...

    Stronger internals ie forged builds is/can be a band aide for poor tuning. Uncontrolled Engine Knock can destroy any engine in milliseconds, and if you can actually heard engine knock?? Well ... your dead meat!

    So there is that, chasing big power without proper knowledge can leave a trail of carnage in it's wake?? Still as the saying goes, speed cost dollars so how fa$T do you want to go???

    There are lots of ways to get there. And while not exactly cheap but still less expensive, than a full stand alone with "Knock Control and Auto Tune." Is the J&S safe guard. I think this is the one we would need.:
    http://www.jandssafeguard.com/NewUniversal/UniversalVersion.html

    It has been around for years and think?? That is one "we" would need?? It's about $500 bucks and is a standalone "knock Box."

    It looks like it's about $600 bucks US.
    http://www.jandssafeguard.com/orders.html

    And you know ... those that "knew what they were doing" did not need it. But you know back in the day ... there were alot of blown up 4efte's and 5efte's making a lot less than 300 wheel hp and you know ... none of them were running a J&S safe guard ... just saying. :)

    And even if one could find that Unicorn of a 5efhe engine?? Hard to find a decade ago so ... good luck today. The rods are still ... "Stock." Now you could "Race Prep" them, ... X ray them for cracks, shot peen them, grind off the casting flash and blue print, polish and balance and you have a set of race preped rods! Course for about 50 to 100 bucks more ... you can get set of a Scat Rods, so there is that.

    And not to be more of a PIA, then I am already ... there is also "Cryo Treatment." :
    https://www.300below.com/motorsports/

    I have not had that done for engine parts myself but I have it done for brake rotors! And with Ceramic Brake Pads ... it works out great! Cuz I used my brakes uh hard and at the last second and we needed I needed them now! I never had an issue with "Frozen Rotors." :
    http://www.frozenrotors.com/

    Well OK maybe ... one issue, depending on where you live, if it gets seriously cold in winter ie well under 32 degrees i and your using "ceramics brake pads," it would be a really good idea to drag the brakes to get some heat into the pads and rotors "before" your first stop! The first winter ... I almost blew thru a stop sigh and right out onto High Way 50 with it's 70 mph traffic. I am only about four houses away from it so, no time to heat the brakes up?? That was exciting! But that was more about the Pads than the rotors but hey now I know so ... I'd drag the brakes to get heat into them before the stop sigh, in the winter. :)

    Ok, enough rambling for now. :)
     
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  19. SKINY

    SKINY Registered User +

    I shall be using a Jam racing FCD, SARD fpr and a Jay to set mine up bud. Local tried and tested methods :)
    It's the best part off 1200 Quid to buy a Link and have it set up here
     
  20. SWJ

    SWJ Member

    Sorry man not being critical?? Just sharing food for thought.

    I don't know who has heard of the J&S safe guard?? It's been around for decades, and has saved many engines. I haven't heard of a case where anyone using one has loss a motor to knock/Pre-Detonation. The guys making 300 hp weren't using one on ASI. But hey they knew what they were doing. :)

    It is not a "Standalone" exactly it's only function is to control, detect Engine Knock and pull back timing. That's all it does, it would be used in "combo" with "proper engine management." It's an "add to" device not an "instead of." You listed engine management mods, J&S, is not that ... exactly.

    4efte ECU's do have knock detectors, but they seem to be "effective" at stock boost or not much over with the stock turbo?? Soon as you change the turbo and start to add timing ... things can go "Boom" real quick, or so it would seem???

    Ah well just trying to help not trying to derail your thread, so if I have ... sorry, my bad. :(
     
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