intake charge cooling using A/C. possible?

[corofin12345]

as stated.. a fmic with water spray... easy to do.. just get another windscreen water bottle/motor/pissers off any car (seat or volkswagan's have good pissers with good spread).. wire it to a seperate switch and get yourself an air intake temp gauge.. when she gets hot, hit the pissers and watch the temps lower.. will be minimum but affective... producing cold air for the inlet of the turbo is pointless as once its compressed by the compressor it will heat up anyway..

 

[dark_knight]

@corofin12345: you raised the same point i told TurboDave, so lemi try give another instance. all the figures used to illustrate these instances are fictional and are purposely for mathematical reasoning.

instance #1:
intake (ambient) temp = 25 deg C
turbo temp elevation (as a result of compression) = +15 deg C
intercooler temp reduction = -10 deg C
intake mani temp = 30 deg C since (25+15 -10)

so now, let's incorporate my idea of lowering the ambient intake temps in this scenario.. holding all factors constant;

instance #2:
intake (ambient) temp = 18 deg C
turbo temp elevation (as a result of compression) = +15 deg C
intercooler temp reduction = -10 deg C
intake mani temp = 23 deg C since (18+15 -10)

does my argument still hold water now..?

@Skalabala: did you mean to say that a/c makes the air damp..?

 

[Rev]

For the record I checked some figures and 9.5deg C reduction of intake temp gives me an extra 5 bhp at consistant boost level ( that would be for an ambient range 32.2degC - 22.7degC.)

 

[dark_knight]

so there is some truth to what i'm saying..?

 

[Rev]

so there is some truth to what i'm saying..?

Intercoolers were invented because there is some truth in what your saying but how to best to get additional cooling of the intake air seems to be the question here? You only want the cool air to get more fuel & o2 in the combustion chamber as soon as its in you want hot air in the chamber to get proper combustion.
It comes out hot either way especially as engine bay heat can build over time. CombustionHeat= 32 // degrees Celsius added per liter of fuel burned

 

[dark_knight]

@Rev: not really. the debate here that resulted in me giving the two scenarios was that corofin12345 and TurboDave said it's pointless to cool the air at the filter stage (intake) and that you only need to worry about cooling it after compression (post-turbo). i was thus trying to bring out the point that the intercooler will only cool the air passing thru it to the best of its thermal capability, so if you pass cooler air through it, it will only further cool that to the same linear temperate capability of a few degrees. so if it cools the air charge by 10 deg C for instance, it will be only be able to do up to 10 deg C, so it does in essence benefit the setup to feed it with as cold air as possible.. thus rendering the statement that cooling intake air is pointless. do you now follow..?

in regards to wanting to get as cold air as possible into the combustion chamber, remember only the volume of air that contains oxygen combusts. and cold air is dense air. so coldER air will be densER thus the reason we try to cool it as much as possible before ignition chamber entry.

 

[TurboDave]

I havent got the patience to type another full reply on my Iphone but anything you say will be negated by the fact that the AC pump will draw more power than it helps produce (if any at all).

I'm not saying that cooler intake pre turbo and at the TB are not good what I am saying is having the AC blowing cool air into the air filter and thinking you are going to gain power over and above what the AC pump is drawing is pretty farcical.

 

[dark_knight]

@TurboDave: sorry i wore you patience thinner than a blown headgasket..
was just letting the modding imaginative self take over.. cheers for all your input on this.. repped..

 

[TurboDave]

@TurboDave: sorry i wore you patience thinner than a blown headgasket..
was just letting the modding imaginative self take over.. cheers for all your input on this.. repped..

Not that patience mate the patience to type on my phone!

Dave

 

[corofin12345]

fuck maths..

when i had my top mount on the pipe was roasted at the throttle body after some boosting.. fitted my fmic and even after a very spirted drive my fmic pipework is cold at the throttle body.. its a known fact that direct water injection onto the outside of the core improves inlet temps.. go for a drive on a very hot day and stick your finger out the window at lets just say 60mph/100km.. lick your finger and stick it back out.. it will feel cold.. same principle

EDIT; oh and i tried the famous short routed pipe work off tubo to core and found my fmic pipework to be hotter at the throttle body..

 

[Rev]

@spacecraft I do agree if temp out is slightly lower that may result in slightly lower temp in but I was talking about intake manifold not intake filter. I think it may be cost benefit as a filter can pull 360 cfm I agree with Dave and Corofin very hard to cool that much air , not enough surface easier to do it with a well designed intercooler.

( Not with standing an Australian has made an invention that gets sufficent surface area using a/c for cooling on the filter intake that works well but is suited to larger engines )

 

[dark_knight]

@corofin12345: lol at f*!k math..

@Rev: got a link of this australian invention..?

overall, i think i'll invest in a good fmic and worry about a spray kit if temps go overboard. i don't thrash my engine that much all the same, just that at times it gets so sweltering hot even on a routine lazy-sunday drive, you'd think you are in death valley.. :|

 

[Rev]

fuck maths..

......when i had my top mount on the pipe was roasted at the throttle body after some boosting.

Corofin you guys are so lucky mine gets roasted with the engine off , I found my black bonnet heats up scorching in the summer sun and soaks into the intake ! silly me removed the insulation )

Space craft was an inventor programme about 2 yrs ago claimed about 20% power If I remember correctly. No link but you could search the 'New Inventors .au '

 

[aidan]

as a fridgeman i believe the water spray is the best option because you are still gettin the benifits of refrigeration as when the water is sprayed on to the fmic it evaporates and therefore lowering the temperature without none of the drawbacks of an a/c system.corofin12345 gave a good simple example of this by licking your finger and feeling the temp difference

 

[turboloon]

if ye want to keep the inlet charge down,ye can get a erl aqua mist kit that plumbs into the inlet pipe,it fires it in a fine mist thus avoiding engine damage and cooling the inlet charge...if ye google it you can find out about it ,when i was in to my rs's a few guys ran it with good results...

 

[_iforget_glanza]

turbo loon water in the engine is not good nomater how fine or little it is....

 

[AdamB]

turbo loon water in the engine is not good nomater how fine or little it is....

Not entirely true.
Water sprayed into the intake charge is so fine, that it gets atomised by the air that picks it up.
If any water was that bad for the engine, we would all still be on horse and cart because air carries molecules of vapour, vapour is water.

 

[Rev]

I am near the ocean, humidity water comes out of the exhaust most days because the engine is designed to get water out but IMO would not use this system on humid days when the extra water may not vaporise that is too risky for me. Also remember on the intake side of things water vapour will take the place of fuel so you might get a little less power when cooling the engine this way unless it allows you to use a more powerful fuel.

 

[Rev]

as a fridgeman i believe the water spray is the best option because you are still gettin the benifits of refrigeration as when the water is sprayed on to the fmic it evaporates and therefore lowering the temperature without none of the drawbacks of an a/c system.corofin12345 gave a good simple example of this by licking your finger and feeling the temp difference

Cooling wise yes but I've been told 14kg of weight is equivilant to 3hp so I wouldn't be carrying a huge tank of water for an extra 5hp but my concern is how long does an Aluminium intercooler last when you spray it especially living with salt air near the ocean.? That's why I was considering CO2. Any idea how the cooling compares between liquid co2 and water spray with ambient say 30degC ?


EDIT : 18kg equivilant to 3hp ( fly)

 

[corofin12345]

Cooling wise yes but I've been told 14kg of weight is equivilant to 3hp so I wouldn't be carrying a huge tank of water for an extra 5hp but my concern is how long does an Aluminium intercooler last when you spray it especially living with salt air near the ocean.? That's why I was considering CO2. Any idea how the cooling compares between liquid co2 and water spray with ambient say 30degC ?

spray the core first if it concerns you.. hight temp spray paint out of a can is perfect as this paint allows heat to escape so in turn will let the air cool the water spray..