max'd out potential?

munday

Member +
I dont agree with that anyway where ever it has come from, NA's have to suck their air in during the downward stroke of the pistons when a vacuum is created where as turbocharged engines have the air forced in through use of a turbo and the cylinders have a certain suck effect as with an NA.

IMO, increasing the airflow on an NA is far more important than on a turbo engine as long as the turbos intake isnt too bad to start with.

NAs dont have to 'suck' the air in, when the piston descends in the cylinder it creates a lower pressure than atmospheric, meaning that air is pushed into the cyl. Why would it be any different for a turbo car?

Having a turbo car running a Bar is like running an NA engine on a planet where the atmosphere is twice as thick. Having a turbo does not chance the fundamental concept of tuning, more air and fuel in = more power. And headwork etc can help make better power without the need to increase boost...the boost reading is a measure of the pressure of the air being pushed through, not the amount. So you can have a car running lower boost than another but producing more power simply due to the correct choice of mods
 

hardcoreep

Member +
NAs dont have to 'suck' the air in, when the piston descends in the cylinder it creates a lower pressure than atmospheric, meaning that air is pushed into the cyl. Why would it be any different for a turbo car?
That's called a vacumm and it pulls/sucks the air into the cylinder. That's why people get sucked out of a pressurized area to another of opposite pressure, ie: you get sucked out of the spacecraft into space. You don't go willingly, and the air into the motor doesn't either.

As I pointed out on my post, its CFM that determines the volume of air into the motor. All boost pressure is doing is compacting whatever volume going through the turbocharger.
 

munday

Member +
That's called a vacumm and it pulls/sucks the air into the cylinder. That's why people get sucked out of a pressurized area to another of opposite pressure, ie: you get sucked out of the spacecraft into space. You don't go willingly, and the air into the motor doesn't either.

As I pointed out on my post, its CFM that determines the volume of air into the motor. All boost pressure is doing is compacting whatever volume going through the turbocharger.

My point is that there is no such thing as 'sucking' the air is pushed in from a higher pressure area.

I understand CFMs and pressures ;)
 

hardcoreep

Member +
Vacuums suck. This all depends on how you view things. From my humble understanding the air isn't pushed, that would be forced induction. Its pulled from an area of high concentration to one of low concentration as the vacuum created in the cylinder tries to normalize/equalize itself with outside pressure. On the other hand using your concept you're saying that once the cylinder hits vacuum this pressure difference causes the high pressure mass to push itself into the low pressure area.

From wikipedia
A naturally-aspirated engine (N/A) is a reciprocating internal combustion engine that depends solely on atmospheric pressure to draw in combustion air. This is in contrast to a forced induction engine, in which a mechanical or exhaust-driven blower is employed to increase the volume of intake air beyond what could be produced by atmospheric pressure alone.

Air or fuel-air mixture is forced into the cylinders by natural atmospheric pressure upon opening of the inlet valve or valves.
So its a matter of english, but they are also quick to point out that exhaust scavenging pulls the air into the engine.

What is a normally aspirated engine?

“Normally aspirated” is a fancy way of saying an engine isn’t turbocharged or supercharged. Aspiration means drawing in by suction, which explains how a typical engine brings air into its intake manifold and then its cylinders. Turbochargers and superchargers, on the other hand, force air into their engines’ intake manifolds at greater-than-atmospheric pressure. Such an engine would be referred to generally as a forced-air-induction engine.

Information for this was taken from the Cars.com’s glossary, written by Joe Wiesenfelder.

From the experts themselves, which brings us to this debunking the english definition theory

aspiration /as·pi·ra·tion/ (as″pĭ-ra´shun)
1. the drawing of a foreign substance, such as the gastric contents, into the respiratory tract during inhalation.
2. removal by suction, as the removal of fluid or gas from a body cavity or the procurement of biopsy specimens.
Hmmm.... Therefore the act of aspiration includes suction, thus a Naturally-aspirated engine sucks in air.
 
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billybob

Untrusted Seller
Vacuums suck. This all depends on how you view things. From my humble understanding the air isn't pushed, that would be forced induction. Its pulled from an area of high concentration to one of low concentration as the vacuum created in the cylinder tries to normalize/equalize itself with outside pressure. On the other hand using your concept you're saying that once the cylinder hits vacuum this pressure difference causes the high pressure mass to push itself into the low pressure area.

From wikipedia



So its a matter of english, but they are also quick to point out that exhaust scavenging pulls the air into the engine.



From the experts themselves, which brings us to this debunking the english definition theory


Hmmm.... Therefore the act of aspiration includes suction, thus a Naturally-aspirated engine sucks in air.

i have to agree with you on that one :p
 

Texx

Super Moderator
Suction is what describes matter being pushed by the high pressure around it into an area of lower pressure. When something is sucked, it's being pushed not pulled. If you had a canister of compressed air in your hand and you stabbed a hole in the side of it, the compressed air (high pressure) would be pushed out of the hole in the canister into the atmosphere (low pressure) and not pulled. Air is not physically attached to a piston, so when a piston descends down a cylinder it cannot pull any air with it. A piston does not physically attract air, so when a piston descends down a cylinder air does not follow it. Air is pushed into the cylinder because the pressure behind it is greater than the area of lower pressure created in the cylinder as the piston descends.
 

hardcoreep

Member +
Suction is what describes matter being pushed by the high pressure around it into an area of lower pressure. When something is sucked, it's being pushed not pulled. If you had a canister of compressed air in your hand and you stabbed a hole in the side of it, the compressed air (high pressure) would be pushed out of the hole in the canister into the atmosphere (low pressure) and not pulled. Air is not physically attached to a piston, so when a piston descends down a cylinder it cannot pull any air with it. A piston does not physically attract air, so when a piston descends down a cylinder air does not follow it. Air is pushed into the cylinder because the pressure behind it is greater than the area of lower pressure created in the cylinder as the piston descends.

I agreed as I said at no point does the piston SUCK air into the cylinder. What the piston does is create vacuum, its that vacuum that pulls air into the cylinder. This is also made very clear in the explanation. And I'll go back to the very definition of the Naturally-aspirated. Its not called Naturally-pushed.

Again the very explanation of the process,
Air or air/fuel mixtures are forced into the cylinders by vacuum caused by cylinder movement, natural atmospheric pressure, and venturi effect upon opening of the inlet valve or valves. The pressure within the cylinder is lowered by the action of the piston moving away from the valves (so as to expand the volume available for incoming air). In some cases the lowering of the cylinder pressure is enhanced by a combination of the speed of the exhaust gases leaving the cylinder and the closing of the exhaust valve at the appropriate time.

I think this is an issue of automotive terminology vs. the raw definition of the words.
 
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Texx

Super Moderator
its that vacuum that pulls air into the cylinder.

A vacuum cannot pull anything. Any matter surrounded by a greater pressure will be pushed into an area of lower pressure. A area of vacuum is an area of lower pressure.

When a piston descends it reduces the pressure in the cylinder and creates a partial vacuum, which is soon filled by air pushed in by atmospheric pressure as soon as an intake valve opens. With a forced induction engine the same thing applies, only the air is pushed into the cylinder by atmospheric pressure plus the additional boosted pressure. For example, a N/A engine will have 14.7psi of pressure pushing air into the cylinders, where as a boosted engine running 1bar will have 29.4psi of pressure pushing air into the cylinders.
 

GaryGT

Member +
I agreed as I said at no point does the piston SUCK air into the cylinder. What the piston does is create vacuum, its that vacuum that pulls air into the cylinder. This is also made very clear in the explanation. And I'll go back to the very definition of the Naturally-aspirated. Its not called Naturally-pushed.

Again the very explanation of the process,


I think this is an issue of automotive terminology vs. the raw definition of the words.

Sorry mate ur way off on this!!
think about it some more and listening to the guys what der saying ;)
on the Intake cycle the cyclinders are pressurised by Atmospheric pressure
engine does not suck in air( no suction or vaccum ) its air been pushed ;)
Ask urself how does the old MAP sensor work what does it read and where does it take its reading from ????
;)
 

GP82

Member +
I'd like to come back to this as I believe it to be rather significant to this discussion.

How many of you that have suffered engine failures have actual data logs listing the ECU's input sensors readings leading right up to the point of engine failure? How have you come to the conclusion that the engine failed due to 'too much boost'? Are you just guessing?

There are so many factors that are relied upon to accurately calculate ignition timing, fuel injector timing and fuel injector duty cycle, if the calculations are wrong particularly during a high load and high engine speed condition, for whatever reason, severe detonation will occur and something is likely to fail and that something is likely to be the headgasket, a piston or a conrod. IMO a bent conrod is more likely to result from the increased cylinder pressure and the hammer like shockwaves caused by severe detonation than it will from increasing the intake charge alone. Detonation is more likely to be the engine killer when increasing turbo boost pressure.

Severe detonation could occur for a number of different reasons i.e. A low battery voltage condition that reduces fuel injector operating speed resulting in insufficient fuel being delivered, the ECU not receiving the WOT position signal from the TPS or even the knock sensor failing to report knock that is actually present resulting in the ECU over advancing the spark.
Take the MAP sensor for example, a wiring fault causing an electrical resistance or air leak causing a difference between the air pressure in the intake manifold plenum and the air pressure seen by the MAP sensor, would most likely result in the ECU receiving an incorrect feedback voltage from the MAP sensor. If the ECU only receives a feedback voltage of 2.5v instead of the intended 5v, then the ECU would deliver a totally incorrect amount of fuel from totally the wrong area of its fuel map. The ECU would also incorrectly calculate engine load and so would provide a totally incorrect amount of spark advance from totally the wrong area of its spark map. The engine would then suffer a situation of insufficient fuel and too much spark advance right when the engine needs more fuel and an earlier spark to be delivered to avoid detonation and stay alive. All this could simply be caused by a small split in a hose or a slightly corroded electrical terminal and probably wouldn’t even flag up a fault code.

Without firm evidence to the cause of an engine failure, I think it's a bit naive to blame it solely on the amount of boost pressure being run. I'd be more inclined to blame it on the calculations the ECU had made (whether due to an error in a multiplier map or incorrect map lookup based on an incorrect input sensor reading) to compensate for that given amount of boost pressure and engine situation leading up to and at the exact moment of engine failure.



I totally agree and I personally would spend my money on some decent well respected engine management before I even though about replacing pistons and rods. Although it needs to be remembered that 100's of hours would have been spent developing the maps for a stock ECU, so no matter how good your tuner is unless they have been afforded a similar amount of time to map your ECU, reliability may always be an issue.

As hardcoreep once said:

Great thread guy's :) and very good post Texx!! Anything can fail like an important sensor that provides an accurate signal to the ecu to save/manage the motor, at the end of the day nothin' is fool proof and fail safe and the bar on that goes considerably lower when you start to push out to the boundaries. That's why you need to stay on top of thing's and keep doing regular checks on sensor reading outputs at different states, fuel pressures, resistance in the leads etc.
 

hardcoreep

Member +
Sorry mate ur way off on this!!
think about it some more and listening to the guys what der saying
on the Intake cycle the cyclinders are pressurised by Atmospheric pressure
engine does not suck in air( no suction or vaccum ) its air been pushed
Ask urself how does the old MAP sensor work what does it read and where does it take its reading from

I understand where you're coming from, however I must go by the definition of how the process happens. The automotive definitions all agree with what I'm saying.
 

TurboDave

Member +
I too understand the physics behind pressures etc, why I worded it in the way I did is because if I said the air is pushed into the cylinders then that would be confused with forced induction as apposed to NA which sucks into the cyliners air from the higher pressure intake path.

It not being disputed that the air will move from the high pressure to the low pressure and that the high pressure will try to equalise the pressure difference by occupying its volume.

If you put your hand over the intake on an NA and rev the engine your hand will be "Sucked" against it, there is no pushing? As apposed to a turbocharged enginer where after the turbo the air will be under pressure ready to be forced into the cylinders.

Probably the best way to describe it is that the air is being drawn in by the downward motion of the piston which makes a pressure difference and then it is pushed out through the exhaust valves when the piston moves upwards.
 

GaryGT

Member +
I too understand the physics behind pressures etc, why I worded it in the way I did is because if I said the air is pushed into the cylinders then that would be confused with forced induction as apposed to NA which sucks into the cyliners air from the higher pressure intake path.

It not being disputed that the air will move from the high pressure to the low pressure and that the high pressure will try to equalise the pressure difference by occupying its volume.

If you put your hand over the intake on an NA and rev the engine your hand will be "Sucked" against it, there is no pushing? As apposed to a turbocharged enginer where after the turbo the air will be under pressure ready to be forced into the cylinders.

Probably the best way to describe it is that the air is being drawn in by the downward motion of the piston which makes a pressure difference and then it is pushed out through the exhaust valves when the piston moves upwards.

what aload of Bollix and ur previous Post is the same.
what is the cycle within a 4 cyclinder engine???
Come on if u know ur pressures and how an engine works please tell us.
or tell u what fucking look it up :shoot:
 

GaryGT

Member +
edit. what this about a new mani design gary\/?

Phil

ah just something i have been working on for the last couple of months.
will be designed with 5E engine in mind.
have been busy so its been on the shelf for a bit!! gonna attack it maybe november.
if it runs well and is proven it mite well be got through a vendor on TGGT ;)



G
 

billybob

Untrusted Seller
what aload of Bollix and ur previous Post is the same.
what is the cycle within a 4 cyclinder engine???
Come on if u know ur pressures and how an engine works please tell us.
or tell u what fucking look it up :shoot:

cool it down lad :haha::haha::haha::haha:
4-Stroke-Engine1.gif
 

billybob

Untrusted Seller
;);)
ah just something i have been working on for the last couple of months.
will be designed with 5E engine in mind.
have been busy so its been on the shelf for a bit!! gonna attack it maybe november.
if it runs well and is proven it mite well be got through a vendor on TGGT ;)



G

keep me in mind for one of these manifolds lad is it the twin turbo setup your making;)
 

TurboDave

Member +
what aload of Bollix and ur previous Post is the same.
what is the cycle within a 4 cyclinder engine???
Come on if u know ur pressures and how an engine works please tell us.
or tell u what fucking look it up :shoot:

Step 1 - Air/fuel mixture enters the cylinder when the intake valve opens.

Step 2 - Air/fuel mixture are compressed and ignited by the spark plug.

Step 3 - Controlled explosion pushes the piston down.

Step 4 - Upward motion of the piston pushes the exhaust gasses out of the exhaust valve.

NO need to be a bellend is there?
 
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spuddy

Ulster Area Rep.
LOL at you guys! First your arguing about max potentials and now yas are arguing about pushing and pulling pressures :p
 
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