Right to defend yourself?

[EP824U]

ROFL, I have never ever heard of someone breaking into a house to steal food. They steal your expensive tech goods to sell for cash, cash converters, or to buy smack.

I have people driving up in a van to check out the house, and then pretend to see if anyone wanted to buy tools, oh and do you have any copper lying around? No fuck off. They ring the doorbell just to make sure no one is in first though.

In the middle east you lose a hand for stealing food. No crime over there.

excactly. If people were made an example of when caught red handed people would think twice about stealing. Maybe they should have the whole of their hands tattoo'd red to show theyre theives lol.
As for addicts, as everyone knows, some will do anything to get their hit.

 

[GTti]

It's hilarious how many people think they should be justified in killing someone for breaking and entering.

I completely agree, I assume in this case the force was not too aggressive being as the intruders first thoughts are to press charges!

There seems to be plenty of people who think they're in a better position to run the country and uphold the law. Sure there are flaws that ideally need to be corrected, but it's very difficult to pass new laws and it could open up a can of worms.

We just need to rely on the courts to make the logical and morally correct decision in these instances.

 

[gv1.3]

Lol Dylan, moved on from drugs and now trying to justify the use of firearms, borderline murder? "In the right hands", I honestly think some of your views are completely mad, yet you also share many that are completely sane.

Here we go again, I have not moved on from my views on drugs, they are still the same and the current laws have not been changed and the scourge of drugs is still with us. If you keep doing the same things you keep getting the same results which is all too evident. In fact many breakins are by people looking for money for drugs, my ideas on drugs which you got so hot and bothered about would make it so cheap and easy for drug addicts to get drugs that there would be no reason for them to steal to buy from criminal drug dealing scum.

Also I am not trying to justify the use of firearms and borderline murder. I said firearms in conjunction with the correct laws can give innocent people the right and method to defend themselves and their property. If you call shooting someone who has broken in to your house or is robbing someone on the street borderline murder that wouldnt surprise me given your views on drugs issues.

Getting back to the broader discussion ...

Just after replying to this thread yesterday I was watching the news and saw a story that was particularly apt. Some men had broken in to an unoccupied house and called 2 electricians to come and give them a quotation for rewiring their house. The first electrician arrived going about his business and trying to earn money. They pretended it was their house and when he went inside they robbed him and locked him in a room. They then awaited the arrival of the second electrician. He arrived and they attempted to rob him. He pulled his LEGALLY held firearm out and blasted. The last report said that one of the robbers was not expected to survive.

There is an example of innocent people going about their daily lives with SCUM attempting to rob them. If do-gooders want to moan about firearms or right to defend ones-self go moan to the thieving scum and tell them not to rob anyone. Had those guys not set about robbing innocent trades people they would not have gotten themselves shot.

 

[EP824U]

I love tgtt debates lol :rockon:

 

[gv1.3]

We just need to rely on the courts to make the logical and morally correct decision in these instances.

We live in democratic countries and the people choose who is elected and can influence law making and the legal system. Law makers and governments cannot be left to run things how they see fit, that is not how our system of governance works.

Case in point http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/07/28/uk.martin/

Farmer shoots intruder is prosecuted under current law and gets prison time. After much public outcry he is released.

Never under estimate the knowledge, spirit and determination of people to take control of their country and their own lives.

 

[Starlet_Sam's_Mum]

??? It happened. And she wasnt on here own. They held her husband at gunpoint. Its not rare for things of the same sort of sickness to happen today. theres no standards in some peoples messed up lives. Why post pure shit?

Also; how can you say thats awesome? Are you some kind of twat? I suppose you answered that yourself with your cool post

I was obviously beinig sarcastic about the awesome statement, my point was, you clearly live in a paranoid state, you watch crimewatch which will only heighten your paranoia.

This is a rare occurance you are far more likely to win the lottery this will not happen to you in your life time. The fact that you think this is not rare shows your state of mind.

 

[gv1.3]

Chris's statement is very true and I think a lot of people would act the same. Like if someone broke in to my house I wouldnt be thinking lets kill this person. Lets look at it from another point of view though.

If a guy breaks in to your house you have no way of knowing what their intentions are. They could be a 15 year old breaking in to steal a can of coke and a mars bar. They could be a rapist breaking in to sexually assault someone. They could be a drug addict breaking in to steal anything to sell for drugs, the home owner has no way of distinguishing which one they are.

So while its foolish to say kill the person, chop them up in to bits and dump the bits over the wall of the nearest pig farm it is also foolish to suggest that a home owners actions can or should be measured depending on the intent of the criminal when there is no way to measure that intent.

Now try to put yourself in this position. You wake up from a deep sleep in the middle of the night and hear someone in your house. You see the door handle on your bedroom door go down and you have a gun in the drawer beside your bed. Do you

A: stop to ask what the intention of the burglar is
B: shoot them and ask questions later
C: pretend to be asleep and see what they decide to do to you

I think what should be at the foremost of everyones mind and the law is that the home owner is innocent and never asked for any of this. The criminal, regardless of their intention, is on private property to commit a crime and as such should face any of the many consequences coming their way.

The homeowner is forced to react on the spot and has no choices. The criminal has the choice not to commit the crime. This is not a situation I ever want to find myself in but I can tell you now that if I woke up and found someone in my house late at night it would be a case of him or me and I would not stop until they were immobilised and posed no further threat. I am sorry but I would not have the inclination to begin a discussion as to what their intentions were.

Also by the same token if a 15 year old who was hungry knocked at my door right now I would be more than happy to give them whatever food I have here, isnt that much more simple than him trying to break in and take it?

 

[Guye]

After reading through this I am extremely grateful to be living in Barbados...

 

[EP824U]

I was obviously beinig sarcastic about the awesome statement, my point was, you clearly live in a paranoid state, you watch crimewatch which will only heighten your paranoia.

This is a rare occurance you are far more likely to win the lottery this will not happen to you in your life time. The fact that you think this is not rare shows your state of mind.

I wouldn't say I live in a paranoid state; far from it. However, underestimating an intruder could potential runi yours and your families life. I know stuff like this is rare but what I'm getting at is you don't know what people are capable of when you wake to hear someone in your house. Lol, I dont watch crimewatch regularly; just remember seing that sick story.

 

[Starlet_Sam's_Mum]

I wouldn't say I live in a paranoid state; far from it. However, underestimating an intruder could potential runi yours and your families life. I know stuff like this is rare but what I'm getting at is you don't know what people are capable of when you wake to hear someone in your house. Lol, I dont watch crimewatch regularly; just remember seing that sick story.

Cool cool, haha it sounded like you did.

 

[EP824U]

Cool cool, haha it sounded like you did.

No. Like you say; it makes you soo paranoid and depressed watching that kind of stuff a lot! Living in fear isn't living at all. Have to watch spongebob afterwards to lighten the mood!

 

[gv1.3]

Agree on the paranoia bit. So many TV shows portray the world as a grey, dark and dangerous place. Remember for every break in, murder, attack etc you hear about or see on TV millions of people slept soundly in their beds with no problems.

Oh and here is a pic of one line of our protection.

 

[uk-parts]

:shoot: Damn this country makes me so angry! I only just joined this forun and already I've got all irate with the government turning this place into socialist police state where the normal law abiding person is persecuted and the scum just ride for free. Argh!

 

[ChrisGT]

Now try to put yourself in this position. You wake up from a deep sleep in the middle of the night and hear someone in your house. You see the door handle on your bedroom door go down and you have a gun in the drawer beside your bed. Do you

A: stop to ask what the intention of the burglar is
B: shoot them and ask questions later
C: pretend to be asleep and see what they decide to do to you
D. ask him/her to join you in bed.

I think what should be at the foremost of everyones mind and the law is that the home owner is innocent and never asked for any of this. The criminal, regardless of their intention, is on private property to commit a crime and as such should face any of the many consequences coming their way.

No, I jest. If I did have a gun besides my bed I'm pretty sure my first reaction would be to yell "I've got a gun!" or fire off a warning shot. I obviously can't say for 100% sure as I have never been in such a stressful/unique situation, but thinking about it now I would say I would do one or both of the above. You're obviously not going to ask what they want, nor are you going to ignore them lol. But I don't think that I, personally, would open fire at him/her. No way jose. Maybe that's just me, but yeah, I'm not up for killing someone just like that. Yeah, they probably are scum trying to steal your hard earned possessions but come on, we're talking about killing another human being! Maybe I'm just a big softy! :kiss:

 

[GTti]

Here we go again, I have not moved on from my views on drugs, they are still the same and the current laws have not been changed and the scourge of drugs is still with us. If you keep doing the same things you keep getting the same results which is all too evident.

Here we go again? Your way or the highway huh!

In fact many breakins are by people looking for money for drugs, my ideas on drugs which you got so hot and bothered about would make it so cheap and easy for drug addicts to get drugs that there would be no reason for them to steal to buy from criminal drug dealing scum.

Not sure where that was plucked from, but I would strongly guess that the majority of break ins, albeit in shops, houses, warehouses and cars is based around theft of valuables. Drug legality wouldn't have an influence.

Also I am not trying to justify the use of firearms and borderline murder. I said firearms in conjunction with the correct laws can give innocent people the right and method to defend themselves and their property. If you call shooting someone who has broken in to your house or is robbing someone on the street borderline murder that wouldnt surprise me given your views on drugs issues.

Getting back to the broader discussion ...

Just after replying to this thread yesterday I was watching the news and saw a story that was particularly apt. Some men had broken in to an unoccupied house and called 2 electricians to come and give them a quotation for rewiring their house. The first electrician arrived going about his business and trying to earn money. They pretended it was their house and when he went inside they robbed him and locked him in a room. They then awaited the arrival of the second electrician. He arrived and they attempted to rob him. He pulled his LEGALLY held firearm out and blasted. The last report said that one of the robbers was not expected to survive.

There is an example of innocent people going about their daily lives with SCUM attempting to rob them. If do-gooders want to moan about firearms or right to defend ones-self go moan to the thieving scum and tell them not to rob anyone. Had those guys not set about robbing innocent trades people they would not have gotten themselves shot.

Well I must disagree, in my opinion you completely miss the broader discussion.

In the drugs thread you were up in arms about how alcohol constitutes towards 8,000 deaths in the UK, increasing the strain on the NHS. Suggesting that other drugs should be legalised may somehow reduce problems.

The US is a prime example of how introducing firearm accessibility is complete loonacy! Even if you do introduce firearm usage "in conjunction with the correct laws" (Which would never happen due to human nature) then those who choose to commit robbery will simply arm themselves. Far from a solution in my mind.

CDC:
In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States.
Estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.

And from brief searches, these figures haven't changed. Approximately half of the deaths are suicide related, perhaps it's easier just to pull a trigger.

Those statistics make alcohol abuse look like nothing.

 

[GTti]

We live in democratic countries and the people choose who is elected and can influence law making and the legal system. Law makers and governments cannot be left to run things how they see fit, that is not how our system of governance works.

Case in point http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/07/28/uk.martin/

Farmer shoots intruder is prosecuted under current law and gets prison time. After much public outcry he is released.

Never under estimate the knowledge, spirit and determination of people to take control of their country and their own lives.

And I remember this well. This guy deserves to serve a long sentence, do you really think he needed to even pull the trigger? Also a prime example of why you can't trust anyone with a gun, regardless of what they need it for.

 

[gv1.3]

Here we go again? Your way or the highway huh!

No just you bringing up a thread that you got all hot and bothered about many months ago and my views on drugs which are totally irrelevant to this thread.



Not sure where that was plucked from, but I would strongly guess that the majority of break ins, albeit in shops, houses, warehouses and cars is based around theft of valuables. Drug legality wouldn't have an influence.

So people break in to steal valuables... and they need the money for what?You do not seem to see the relationship between cause and effect.


Well I must disagree, in my opinion you completely miss the broader discussion.

I miss the broader discussion how? It was about the right to defend ones self. I have put forth my view on this. If you think this is missing the broader discussion then why dont you enlighten us as to what you perceive the broader discussion to be?

In the drugs thread you were up in arms about how alcohol constitutes towards 8,000 deaths in the UK, increasing the strain on the NHS. Suggesting that other drugs should be legalised may somehow reduce problems.

You say I was up in arms as if I were ranting. I simply said that there are less harmful drugs than alcohol and that if we as a people are going to tackle substance abuse we should concentrate on those drugs which do most harm. You have now somehow twisted that in to me saying legalise other drugs to reduce problems when in fact that is not what I said. If you have calmed down enough now to revisit that thread I can open it back up and continue it with you.


The US is a prime example of how introducing firearm accessibility is complete loonacy! Even if you do introduce firearm usage "in conjunction with the correct laws" (Which would never happen due to human nature) then those who choose to commit robbery will simply arm themselves. Far from a solution in my mind.

Your comment above is not based on fact. The US cannot be a prime example of what you suggest. The simple reason is that the US never did introduce firearm usage it has always had firearms. The people have always had the right to carry them. It is not like there was a law made one day to say everyone can carry guns and suddenly everyone went and purchased them.

Of course in countries that have strict gun laws you could not just turn around and introduce the same liberal gun laws that the US has as it would be too much of a shift. You could however permit homeowners to have guns or at least introduce laws allowing them to protect themselves and their property.

Also you sound quite naive with a comment like "those who commit robbery will simply arm themselves" - do you think people dont already arm themselves?

CDC:
In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States.
Estimated 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.

And from brief searches, these figures haven't changed. Approximately half of the deaths are suicide related, perhaps it's easier just to pull a trigger.

Im not sure what point you are trying to make by posting firearm death statistics for the US?

Also regarding your comment on suicide related deaths with firearms are you suggesting that people commit suicide more because its easier if they have access to guns? The suicide rate in Ireland is extremely high per capita and there are very few firearms.

Those statistics make alcohol abuse look like nothing.


You are selectively choosing data reports and ignoring others. those statistics make alcohol abuse look like nothing in what country?? in the UK? well yes because the population is massive compared to the UK. How about doing a comparison that actually makes sense Luke. Lets look at the stats for American deaths due to alcohol which would make sense given you have quoted American deaths due to firearms.

I know you like your reports so have a look at this one
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm

Its from 2001 so has probably only gotten worse. It says Alcohol attributed deaths for 2001 is roughly 76,000, hardly what I would describe as "nothing".

That is just direct deaths and not deaths due to people being run over by drunk drivers or beaten to death by people out of their minds on drink not to mention people who are depressed and drunk and kill themselves.

Since you trust the CDC information I took the liberty of searching for marijuana related deaths and found no reports.

Again if you want to continue the drugs V alcohol discussion I am more than happy to open the thread back up. This thread is about right to defend though so I think we should probably bring it back on topic.

It is probably also worth mentioning that there are an estimated 350,000,000 (three hundred and fifty million) privately owned guns in the US. With the figures you have mentioned above it looks like 0.021% of these guns are involved in an accident or crime.

Responses above in bold.

And I remember this well. This guy deserves to serve a long sentence, do you really think he needed to even pull the trigger? Also a prime example of why you can't trust anyone with a gun, regardless of what they need it for.

The fact is that if the person who got shot didnt break in to his house he wouldnt have been shot. He has only got himself to blame.

In your opinion he deserves to serve a long sentence, the people and consequently the law thankfully thinks otherwise and he is a free man today.

 

[gv1.3]

No, I jest. If I did have a gun besides my bed I'm pretty sure my first reaction would be to yell "I've got a gun!" or fire off a warning shot. I obviously can't say for 100% sure as I have never been in such a stressful/unique situation, but thinking about it now I would say I would do one or both of the above. You're obviously not going to ask what they want, nor are you going to ignore them lol. But I don't think that I, personally, would open fire at him/her. No way jose. Maybe that's just me, but yeah, I'm not up for killing someone just like that. Yeah, they probably are scum trying to steal your hard earned possessions but come on, we're talking about killing another human being! Maybe I'm just a big softy! :kiss:

Fully see your point Chris and I think that is just the key. I believe the home owner should be able to take whatever steps they feel are required to keep their family and property safe.

I believe that once someone unlawfully enters your home all bets are off. They have made a decision to do so and have left their rights at the door. If they are lucky enough to meet a homeowner that holds them at gunpoint until the police arrive thats cool. But if they meet a homeowner who is scared and lets rip on them then I dont think the home owner should be to blame.

I know the law in Ireland is due to be changed with regard to this very matter and I am waiting with interest to see what happens.

A friend of mine was sharing a house with some other friends. They came home and the house had been broken in to. They noticed that all of the knives in the kitchen were missing and scattered in all the rooms. The police told them that burglars often place a knife in each room in case they are disturbed so that there is a weapon close by. It is not a pleasant thought.

 

[GT-TD04]

If someone unlawfully breaks into a house and the home owner feels threathend for his life (i.e bigger lad with a knife etc) i could possibly see the use of a firearm being the just thing,1 warning shot then one in the leg.

However in Ireland the general household with kids wont hold firearms in the house or within the vicinty of it,there for a shout asking the intentions of the person would suffice to make a decision.
1. If he charges,do absolutely do everything in your power to stop the person so as to protect yourself, imo this means the closest heaviest object you are capable of swinging until the intruder is no longer a threat,whether it be a blow to the leg,arm or in the extreme,head.
.Its called self defence,he isnt charging towards you for a hug.

2.
If he runs you have two options
(i) If he looks similar or smaller in build,perhaps try to detain him,but who knows what implement he has in his pocket.
(ii)If he is bigger than you or has a weapon and is fleeing,keep close and get a good description.

It doesnt matter if the intruder is looking for drugs,money,keys or a cup of tea, you do NOT know his intentions,and whatever they may be he has NO right to enter your house unlawfully.He should be either detained for the Garda or ran out.Considering that he's facing prison,i doubt he could contain him by asking,so physically restraining him by whatever means possible should be the general concensus?


-------------------------------------------
As for killing,if you think your life is in danger you should protect it in whatever way possibile,but i would not want anyones death on my hands and mind.

Obviously the world isnt perfect and sometimes extreme measures must be taken,if sometimes even the Garda,the protectors of the free people ,must kill an assailant to protect their own lives the general public should have the same option in extreme conditions.
There would be grey areas and totally balck and white also,they should be outlined and anyone who oversteps should be dealed with harshly.
i.e Shooting a burglar in the back as he is hopping out the window or sticking a knife in his kidneys when the assailant is clearly leaving the premisies.By all means restrain if possible,but there would be no need to kill.

My 2c


Oh and Hi Som,long time to see

 

[Johnny_C]

In the middle east you lose a hand for stealing food. No crime over there.

i agree with this completely.
if i caught some some robbing from me,i wouldnt kill them,i start snipping fingers off,and as far as im concerned,they would of lost them breaking into my property.