Best Suspension Setup for Irish Roads??

[Phil]

I'll have a look into the lower springs rate, but I think it wouldn't change alot on the comfort level as it is mainly down to the dampers.

Another issue you have to remember is that the Tein SuperStreet is single perch coilover with twintube damper, where the MeisterR Zeta-R is a dual perch coilover with monotube damper.

Monotube damper have shorter damper stroke travel than twintube damper due to its design, but I try to pack as much damper stroke travel into the Zeta-R given the space anyways. This is why MonoTube works well in a dual perch coilovers design as you don't loose damper stroke travel as you lower the car.

The point is that lowering the spring rate doesn't just change the comfort level if it does at all, there are other factors to consider and it adds springs travel during cornering so therefore add body roll.

The Zeta-R are already designed to be compliant over rough roads, most of the people who used the Zeta-R all said it is pretty comfortable at its current specification. If we drop the spring rate by 40% (5kg/mm > 3kg/mm), thats changing the specification by quite alot and I worry how it will affect the compliancy over rough roads to be honest.

so in esscene it couldnt be done by any of the brands i mentioned due to the very basics of their design?

the "banging" on very bumpy or demanding roads comes down to the stroke travel not being able to take on the bumps, and bang its at the end of its travel, same as every other budget brand.

i assume it would cost alot more to go outside the comman, budget rack/fast road design to incorperate a twintube damper design?

thanks for the input jerrick.

Phil

 

[Corey_gt]

They sound very interesting. I
supose the key is to try and get a
good balance with the rebound
damping and nice travel which is
tricky and would take time but
worth it. You dont want the shock
to be like a pogo stick with
rebound and not to
be slow either causing it to pack
up over rough roads and bottom
out before the have a chance to
extend. I would like to get a
chance to toy with setups to see
how good I could get it its just
finding time and money to do it lol.

 

[HYBRID]

well imo according to what ur saying the ideal setup for irish roads is as follows:

:haha:

 

[clarkytrd]

now thats what im talking about!!

nice one kon

 

[WallaceGlanza]

tanabe coilovers,they are in bov's car,aidan-g's brother.i like cusco too.
i have to laugh at the bc hype,i mean,ppl say they are the same standard as cusco,not a hope,cusco are twice the price for a reason.
bc/d2/k-sport are the same coilover with maybe different springs rates.

Twice the price doesn't mean twice the quality, you are paying for the brand name in a lot of cases.

I've gone from cusco's to BC's and on the road, BC's are better.

 

[Phil]

does any other manufacturer other than tein do twintube dampers on there coilovers?

Phil

 

[MeisterR]

so in esscene it couldnt be done by any of the brands i mentioned due to the very basics of their design?

the "banging" on very bumpy or demanding roads comes down to the stroke travel not being able to take on the bumps, and bang its at the end of its travel, same as every other budget brand.

i assume it would cost alot more to go outside the comman, budget rack/fast road design to incorperate a twintube damper design?

thanks for the input jerrick.

Phil

I think I really confused you here Phil...

You can have less suspension travel using a single perch coilovers with a twintube damper than a dual perch coilovers with a monotube damper.

Thats because you loose suspension travel as you lower the car using single perch coilovers like the Tein SS.
I'll give you some number to illustrate the difference a bit easier.

MeisterR Monotube damper, free damper stroke length 120mm.
When you car is on it, the damper compress, so say 50%.
So you now have 60mm of compression, and 60mm of rebound, that makes sense?

Right, now lets look at a twin tube damper

Tein SS Twintube damper, free damper stroke length 140mm
So when the car weight is on it, the damper also compress 50%.
So you now have 70mm of compression and 70mm of rebound.

Okay, but the car will sit like a 4x4, so you lower the car using the perch.

Now you lower the car by 35mm

The MeisterR because its dual perch design, it will still have 60mm of compression and 60mm of rebound.

The Tein SS because its single perch design, it now have 35mm of compression and 105mm of rebound.

As you can see, you are more likely now to bottom out using the Tein than MeisterR, even though the Tein start out with more damper travel.

Idrees's MeisterR Zeta-R had helper springs put on in the rear to help the rear lower more. By doing this, he lost about 30mm of damper stroke travel. However, he still haven't had any issue bottoming out, thats how much damper stroke travel the MeisterR have to begin with. You will still have enough travel even after loosing 30mm of compression travel.

The new design coming in January have a different rear damper design which will allows the same amount of travel as before without the use of helper springs, but allows the car to lower 30mm more. The front never had been an issue with lowering.

I hope it makes more sense now.

To be honest, 5/4 split will be fine.
I am just trying to get into as much details as possible, but I think you are looking too hard into the technical aspect of it.

I designed the MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers to provide "compliant handling over rough roads", and this mean it won't be jaw shattering or bottoming out over rough roads.

 

[MeisterR]

does any other manufacturer other than tein do twintube dampers on there coilovers?

Phil

Also, another reason TwinTube damper are used because it is cheaper to manufacture.

TwinTube have smaller internal so the damping control isn't as good as MonoTube.
It have a second camber for the oil to flow to and therefore it cannot quickly get raid of heat generated under hard usage (like driving on rough roads)
It also doesn't have high pressure gas to help stabilize the oil from cavitation.

The main reason that twintube dampers are used is cost, not really performance.

 

[Phil]

I think I really confused you here Phil...

You can have less suspension travel using a single perch coilovers with a twintube damper than a dual perch coilovers with a monotube damper.

Thats because you loose suspension travel as you lower the car using single perch coilovers like the Tein SS.
I'll give you some number to illustrate the difference a bit easier.

MeisterR Monotube damper, free damper stroke length 120mm.
When you car is on it, the damper compress, so say 50%.
So you now have 60mm of compression, and 60mm of rebound, that makes sense?

Right, now lets look at a twin tube damper

Tein SS Twintube damper, free damper stroke length 140mm
So when the car weight is on it, the damper also compress 50%.
So you now have 70mm of compression and 70mm of rebound.

Okay, but the car will sit like a 4x4, so you lower the car using the perch.

Now you lower the car by 35mm

The MeisterR because its dual perch design, it will still have 60mm of compression and 60mm of rebound.

The Tein SS because its single perch design, it now have 35mm of compression and 105mm of rebound.

As you can see, you are more likely now to bottom out using the Tein than MeisterR, even though the Tein start out with more damper travel.

Idrees's MeisterR Zeta-R had helper springs put on in the rear to help the rear lower more. By doing this, he lost about 30mm of damper stroke travel. However, he still haven't had any issue bottoming out, thats how much damper stroke travel the MeisterR have to begin with. You will still have enough travel even after loosing 30mm of compression travel.

The new design coming in January have a different rear damper design which will allows the same amount of travel as before without the use of helper springs, but allows the car to lower 30mm more. The front never had been an issue with lowering.

I hope it makes more sense now.

To be honest, 5/4 split will be fine.
I am just trying to get into as much details as possible, but I think you are looking too hard into the technical aspect of it.

I designed the MeisterR Zeta-R coilovers to provide "compliant handling over rough roads", and this mean it won't be jaw shattering or bottoming out over rough roads.

but i wont lower the car.:haha: i couldnt make it down jays lane or to work, my lower arm bar already hits the centre of the road and im using rsr springs!

ive been in cars with cusco/d2 etc and in a car with lowered tein SS, and the SS where by far the softest and most bareable.

Phil

 

[Corey_gt]

I think my description is a good
setup for a dunne buggy lol. I'll
defo have a good look at your new
setups in the future it might be
worth considering. I would be in
the same boat as Phil on the
setups.

 

[gglavin]

my set up is

TRD bushes all around & new drop links.
Powerflex engine mounts & rear gearbox mount
cusco zero one coilovers & strut braces
whiteline rear ARB
TOYO T1R'S

holds the road like nothing i have ever been in before & does not rattle at all, and the coilies are hard

it used to rattle until i changed/uprated all the bushes

 

[MeisterR]

but i wont lower the car.:haha: i couldnt make it down jays lane or to work, my lower arm bar already hits the centre of the road and im using rsr springs!

ive been in cars with cusco/d2 etc and in a car with lowered tein SS, and the SS where by far the softest and most bareable.

Phil

The fact you are using RSR springs mean you are already lowered.
Think of the Tein SS as your standard damper with an adjustable perch.

The fact that you have RSR springs on mean your damper is already 35mm lower than the "original" specification.
Or in another word, the damper is already 35mm closer to bottoming out just by standing still.

You need to get in a car with sensiable coilovers Phil.
Both Cusco/D2 from what I know are very harshly valved with heavy springs, they are NOT meant for use on bumpy roads.

If you compare Cusco to a set of Tein SS, then it is like comparing the ride of a Ferrari to the ride of a Lexus over rough roads... Of course the Tein SS would be alot more bearable. :haha:

Lets put it this way. I wouldn't have twintube dampers over mono tube dampers because if it is specified correctly, monotube dampers will out perform twintube in every category.

Example: The Lexus SC430 (£56k Luxury Cruiser) comes standard with MonoTube Dampers. The car was design to be comfortable in all condition, and I am sure Lexus wasn't under any budget when building the suspension for this car. MonoTube dampers was their choice for their flagship luxury car.

 

[Phil]

The fact you are using RSR springs mean you are already lowered.
Think of the Tein SS as your standard damper with an adjustable perch.

The fact that you have RSR springs on mean your damper is already 35mm lower than the "original" specification.
Or in another word, the damper is already 35mm closer to bottoming out just by standing still.

You need to get in a car with sensiable coilovers Phil.
Both Cusco/D2 from what I know are very harshly valved with heavy springs, they are NOT meant for use on bumpy roads.

If you compare Cusco to a set of Tein SS, then it is like comparing the ride of a Ferrari to the ride of a Lexus over rough roads... Of course the Tein SS would be alot more bearable. :haha:

ok well my car is lowered with uprated shocks. and yes it is then 35 closer to bottoming out but it doesnt.

which is why its hard to get all the guys like me to move from shocks and springs to coilovers, if you could convince us then you would have a nice pocket of business, because you wouldnt be competing against any other budget coilover manufacturer, with what is in ireland/the countryside pointlessly hard coilovers.

can we get a list in here of all the coilovers and there relative spring rates?

now about the bit in bold, lets not, lets compare meisterR coilovers to tein superstreet coilovers. without any technical descriptions and no masking to your answer, is meisterR and Tein SS like ferrari and lexus? would you again have to admit that "tein ss would ofcourse be more bareable:haha:" than the meisterRs ?

Phil

 

[gorganl2000]

well imo according to what ur saying the ideal setup for irish roads is as follows:

:haha:

:haha::haha::haha:

 

[MeisterR]

is meisterR and Tein SS like ferrari and lexus?
would you again have to admit that "tein ss would ofcourse be more bareable:haha:" than the meisterRs ?

Phil

Right, the short answer is NO.

MeisterR to Tein will not be like a Ferrari to Lexus because MeisterR Zeta-R wasn't specified to be a track coilovers (Ferrari)

Comparing MeisterR Zeta-R to Tein SS will be like comparing a BMW to a Lexus... It might be firmer, but it won't be harsh.

You won't need to "bear" with it with the MeisterR Zeta-R, because that wasn't in the specification.
It is going to be compliant on rough roads, not break your spine hard.
Also, the MeisterR Zeta-R are specified for the Starlet EP82/91 Chassis, that was why development work was done for the car and not just off the shelf.


I kind of feel responsible as I think somewhere along the line I didn't explain myself very well, and therefore things got confusing.

If anything above is not clear, please feel free to let me know because sometime I type before my brain finish thinking. :haha:

 

[Phil]

no thats fine, and what choices would you guys offer to us irish members? spring rate wise.

how soft a spring would you trust with your coilover?

maybe not as soft as tein then as thats asking alot, but how close could you get for us?

and you would provide a warrenty with these and they can be rebuilt within the UK?

Phil

 

[Texx]

If anything above is not clear, please feel free to let me know because sometime I type before my brain finish thinking. :haha:

Are you saying that the MeisterR Zeta-R will be near enough as compliant as a conventional shock/spring setup whilst at the same time give the full adjustment advantages of a coilover?

 

[gglavin]

Are you saying that the MeisterR Zeta-R will be near enough as compliant as a conventional shock/spring setup whilst at the same time give the full adjustment advantages of a coilover?

but not the handling & stability of , cusco, tein etc.....

why go for coilovers & then not want the option of going on a track, my car is pretty much track prepared & drives lovely on any road.

 

[Texx]

why go for coilovers & then not want the option of going on a track, my car is pretty much track prepared & drives lovely on any road.

Not everyones application is going to be the same. If you use your car as a daily drive most of the time and only do the odd trackday, then your more likely to want better comfort on the road than ultimate handling on the track.

Regardless of what suspension you go for, your still going to have the option of taking the car around a track. The last 5 trackdays I've done have been with standard shocks and Tein springs fitted, I still had fun. Your car isn't going to fall off the track just because you haven't got some expensive branded coilovers fitted to it.

 

[Phil]

drives lovely on any road.

come and see lol,

i could probably send you up a road on my way to work, that you'd either point blank refuse to drive up at more than 30mph or that you would come out of without your front bumper/lower arms/spine.

as texx pointed out different applications.

Phil