The great 5E v 4E timing debate.

[billybob]

Had to nip out there for some smokes

I can hook up the laptop to the EMU, I'm not overly offay with the operation of the thing but I'm sure I can datalog.

I need to take it for a run tomorrow before I change anything cause of something Chris said I should check on the log. Then we'll (me and billy) strip it down and firstly check for abnormalities in the 4E timing and if we spot its wrong we can fix it and take it for another run and log it.

Lastly we'll stick it on the 5E marks and go logging.

What ever gives me the earliest/longest boost curve is the winner!

Unless of course I'm told in the mean time this sounds risky for the engine even with the ignition timeing set to stock levels.

mybe chris can give you some input about this too ,i might just transfer your map to my emu and fool my 1.3 engine into thinking its a 5e :haha::haha::haha:

 

[goldenvtr]

sounds like a plan, look forward to seeing how it goes.

its all about usable power so some sacrifice should be nessasary depending on your aim/use for the car?

keep the thread up to date when you can and ill do the same...

 

[spuddy]

mybe chris can give you some input about this too ,i might just transfer your map to my emu and fool my 1.3 engine into thinking its a 5e :haha::haha::haha:

Wot turbo and injector size are u running lad? If the injectors where the same then yea we could do it, it'd just overfuel and over retard the ingnition but if the injectors are smaller it'd prob underfuel.

 

[spuddy]

sounds like a plan, look forward to seeing how it goes.

its all about usable power so some sacrifice should be nessasary depending on your aim/use for the car?

keep the thread up to date when you can and ill do the same...

Aye lad we need to get this sorted and decided once and for all!

 

[billybob]

spuddy the engine i have in the car is a 1.3 ross pistons puater rods 1.6 headgasket ,330 injectors chris couldnt sort the map out that time as there was a timing issue 4 fellas done the timing belt and nobody could get it to the 10 degress so ive given up on that ,just going to build my 5e and be done with it

 

[billybob]

Aye lad we need to get this sorted and decided once and for all!

x2 we need to send this car into the 10s on the drag strip:beer::beer:

 

[spuddy]

spuddy the engine i have in the car is a 1.3 ross pistons puater rods 1.6 headgasket ,330 injectors chris couldnt sort the map out that time as there was a timing issue 4 fellas done the timing belt and nobody could get it to the 10 degress so ive given up on that ,just going to build my 5e and be done with it

i think I have my old TD04 4E map with stock pistons/rods and 327cc injectors.

 

[billybob]

i think I have my old TD04 4E map with stock pistons/rods and 327cc injectors.

what boost were you running?that on there the injectors you gave me thats in this engine might be good for a base map

 

[spuddy]

what boost were you running?that on there the injectors you gave me thats in this engine might be good for a base map

Flip, erm was either my 1.1 bar map or the 1.35bat map, wonder does chris still have my 1.35 bar map. Actually lad come to think of it i think it was on my emanage blue.

 

[billybob]

sure i will drop up to you tomorow anyway

 

[spuddy]

sure i will drop up to you tomorow anyway

aye call up lad, will be good to have another opinoin on whats going on. I'm thinking the 5E marks are the ones to go for at the minute. I know its against the grain of opinoin here but the best 5E build I know of is Harrys and his is also the fastest.

 

[billybob]

aye call up lad, will be good to have another opinoin on whats going on. I'm thinking the 5E marks are the ones to go for at the minute. I know its against the grain of opinoin here but the best 5E build I know of is Harrys and his is also the fastest.

interesting sure try it out anyway

 

[goldenvtr]

well to let you know i done a compression test

from left to right facing teh engine i got

170
170
155
165 psi

should i be worried about the 3rd one??

ive also now swapped back to 5e timing mark lol - it didnt take long but i can really comment as i can drive the car on WOT as i have unlimited boost Atm due to wastegate issue so can only half thrttle

also to note i got the same compression fguers before and after swapping the cam marker

 

[hardcoreep]

I'm not sure the CR would change based on the marker change. What the mark does is alter the cam timing, when and where the valves would open. This is rather important difference between an NA car and a turbo car.

 

[goldenvtr]

i didnt really expect it too, the comp ratio is the only thing that can affect over all compression as far asi know?

what does the n/a cam timming do diffrently than a turbo setup?

edit - i found this article but not taken it in yet needs a few reads.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/TimingTutorial/

 

[billybob]

lads would you say spuddys might be very low 130 psi on all,he put the cams to 5e marks also his tps was not cliped in seemed to get his timing back to 10 degress he was saying he can feel a differance now mybe the higher lift cams and bigger gasket will lower the comp test also he should be able to run 1.8 bar easy mybe more what you fellas think

 

[Animal GT]

x2 we need to send this car into the 10s on the drag strip:beer::beer:

are you smoking somting??:haha: 10s i dont tink so dude

 

[hardcoreep]

i didnt really expect it too, the comp ratio is the only thing that can affect over all compression as far asi know?

what does the n/a cam timming do diffrently than a turbo setup?

edit - i found this article but not taken it in yet needs a few reads.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/TimingTutorial/

Turbo cars don't like cam overlap, NA cars do.

 

[-Harry-]

mybe a question is there anybody on the site running forged 5e setups on the 5e cam marks that can give some solid info ,that it can work better than 4e cam timing .and if so will it alter the compression readings mybe

Hardcoreep is right. It will not effect your compression, only where and when the cams open. Ive only looked at it breifly but from what I can see the 4e mark may move peak torque to later in the rev range giving more hp. While we're on the subject, since when has more hp and less torque been a good thing? Its all reletive to your setup. Looking at spuddys setup, hes going to need all the torque he can get. If it was me, Id be leaving it on the 5e mark

I've sent Harry a PM, I think his 5E is on the 5E marks but not 100%, his is super fast.

I should really put it to 5E markers and take it back to the rolling road for a direct comparisson, just don't have the cash atm though.

I read that an aftermarket cam can reduce compression due to the inlet staying open beyond BDC.

Yep mate, I run a 5e on the 5e marks. Just made sense when I was building it. Ive never tried it on th 4e marks but it would be interesting. Yes my car is fast but remember its never really made 'huge' power, it did have a heap of torque though. It only made just under 300hp at the wheels. Im now working on a more responsive setup again and its looking promising.

The only way you will resolve this is back to back testing on an RR. It would have to be done back to back to eliminate any varibles like temp ect. Maybe cutting the plastic away from the tensioner would make it more accessible for a quick change while on the RR.

Ideally youd want an adjustable cam gear. The problem comes in where your adjusting both cams at the same time in oposite directions. The next step is to make the inlet cam adjustable too which Ive seen before on similar driven setups. Its just a bitch to setup. Im yet to see this tried on a starlet, not too sure if the benefits would out weigh the cost.

...and yes your right about larger cams reducing CR.

Hope that all helped. Im keen to see the results if you decide to test it out.

Cheers

Harry

 

[spuddy]

When swapping from 5E to 4E timing marks, am I correct in thinking all that needs done is the cam pully gear just needs taken off and rotated round so the 5E mark matches the exact same dimple as the 4E was lined up to? Or do the cams need realigned in a different way?

I only did the cam gear.

I have a rolling road hired on the 5th for a remap, if we have time and ECC don't mind we might put it back to 4E markings and test out the theory while we have it on the rollers. I'll discuss this with Chris though and see if he's curious also, cause would prob mean writing a second map into the ecu for the 4E markings.

At the moment I'm willing to sacrafice HP for torque, I just think it'll pull me through the gears much much better than having to rev the nuts out of it.


Harry out of curiousity, what was your torque figure? And what RPMS did u acheive max torque and HP?