advantages of the 5e over the 4e?

[StarletRick]

there is a guy running 28 psi on a ct9, and apparently it isnt hybridised. but it wouldnt be efficient.

it isnt about boost, its about air flow. alot of people get confused by that. just because you run high boost doesnt mean that youll make big power. engines are a big air pump, and the more air you can flow, determines the power, and pressure (boost) is the side effect of that flow. for example, a ct9 running 1.2bar will make circa 160-180hp depending on other mods. a td05 running 1.2bar will make alot more power than this at the same pressure because it is flowing alot more air even though the pressures are the same.

this is all measured in compressor maps. i wont go into it on here as i could type forever. but each compressor has a map of how much air it will flow at a given RPM. to determine the engine flow compared to the compressor rpm you then choose an exhaust impellor to match it. strapping a monster compressor on a small hot side sounds ideal, fast spool, loads of boost. but in reality youll have trouble controlling the boost and end up with a really unstable setup prone to serious spikes. its a fine line between managable boost and flow efficiency. its quite a tricky science matching up the right size turbo to the engine. and its all guesswork in the 4e as i dont think ive ever seen a proper bench flowed result for the block and head to allow a proper turbo matching.

and gee, you basically summed it up there. you will squeeze more power out of a 5e, but not tons, and in doing so you are causing reliability issues over the 4e.

and yea, im running 5e.

 

[sx_turbo]

rick so in light of what you just said, would you do a 5e again, or would you stick with the 4e?

i'm just intrigued

 

[StarletRick]

if i did it again, id probably stick with a 4e. they are more than capable, just look at dave's. that thing is a fecking animal. and there is ALWAYS that thought in the back of your mind about what will break next with the 5e. touch wood though, she hasnt eaten any parts in the last 2 months. i think ive finally got this 5e lark sussed, lol.

that said im enjoying the 5e at the moment, it will be interesting to see how it ends up. ive seen some smack talk about my build, that it wouldnt work, that it would run crap, etc. its fun proving all those noddys wrong. its already nipping at 300hp and is only running 1.2bar. which is still outside on the compressor efficiency on this turbo ^^;

the guy tuning it thinks that at 1.8bar, it will make over 350hp. but tbh ill run it at about 260 for daily driving, anything more than that is unusable on the roads. its already insane as it is.

 

[97'GlanzaVTurbo]

Some great info there Rick,

Understand it alot more now and some rep points for that you
Just out of curiousity what do you think would be the best setup for power/response, I understand some setups will make bigger power and some will have better response but what do you think would be the best balanced setup?? Like which engine/turbo/ecu??
Christy

 

[Adam_Glanza]

a 5e with an appropriately sized turbo would be best for response

but its alot of work for just response

 

[GTti]

I think it was Daihatsu engineers that actually discovered a cylinder size of just under or over (can't remember) 300cc is the optimal cylinder size for an internal combustion engine. Goes to show in F1, 2.4L V8's.

Rick makes sense, but everything inbetween the turbo and cylinder including the head will affect flow and pressure. Although it's not a case of just using x turbo, if you aren't exceeding it's compressor map then there is no need to upgrade. An engine can only injest a certain volume of air per rev, but how dense that volume is will differ per turbo depending on where both lie in their compressor maps.

 

[Dave@TM-developments.com]

Our car and Ricks had a lot of thought go into before even lifting a spanner. The best way is to start with the power and purpose you require for the car and work back from there

 

[StarletRick]

yep, best piece of advise there.

plan it out properly before throwing loads of parts together and expecting a ton of power.

and everyone has their own little tuning secrets. its all part of the fun ^^

 

[gorganl2000]

good read so far.......however i have a disagreement with one thing said so far...or maybe two things...lol

anyway....someone here was saying the had reliability issues with the 5E---i read this a while back and i am not going back through this whole tread to find out where/who....lol....and that if given the chance they would have stuck to the 4E

i dont know about u guys over there........but all the 5Es i've seen have not had any reliability problems....whether ct9, td series or garret series, etc....across varying power tables with BOTH standard internals and forge internals...

i remember way back when when people used to talk about bearings will spin......rubbish......i remember the rod through block concern...again rubbish....i remember the HC 5E wont last.....again rubbish (tuner has to know what they are doing though)......headgasket issues...again rubbish---seen people run some big boost on the stock h/gasket and stock head botls without issues

now from observing the 4e and 5e for a LONG time.....there is nothign which says that one will outlast the other......i can follow the theory of the block and slithgly longer rods in the 5e........but theory and reality dont always agree.....just like hardcoreep....people rev both to 8,000rpm without issue

yes, if u try to get 300whp out of any 4e/5e engine u stand the risk of damaging something........anyone will tell u this......why, because the power on the original 4e/5e is 115/133bhp .............so its trippling the power.....so u can logically expect things to fail

let's leave that there for now....i'm sure it will spark some conversation....LOLOLOL

 

[StarletRick]

it was me who had reliability issues. but they wasnt bad: oil pump failure, pulley failure, clutch problems, etc

but, i expect them. im pushing the 5e to the limit, and i know stuff will break. but youre taking it out of context. a turbo 5e will never be as reliable as a 4e due to the reasons i have stated above. im not saying it will be unreliable, just less reliable than a comparable 4e.

 

[HYBRID]

think hussy's GT is still with the 4e block... doin 11's down the 1/4 mile that shows what a 13 can realy do !correct me if im wrong and hes not using the 4e (kon)

4e all the way! still alot to do as the head is still stock.. just a mild port n polish... the 4e can handle the same power the 5e can.. its all in the tune

 

[gorganl2000]

oh...by the way....just take a look through the "tech" section........most in here have 4efte,,,about 90%-95% i would say..........and we see the list of problems which can happen ......and some as standard as they left the factory

 

[Toby@ToyTuning.com]

This thread will scare of any potential 5e users, it's very simple really can't believe it's still going on we had no problems, a 5e turbo motor is just as a reliable as a 4e turbo motor it's only a slighty longer stroke. Rick what oil pump were you using? Was it changed when you rebuilt the engine? What pulley failure did you have and what was the clutch problem?

Any info appreciated.

Toby

Reliability isn't an issue we can't take one example that had problems and say they are all unreliable that's madness! None of our 5e's have any problems I speak from experience hence I wanted to know what issues people had so we could elaborate..

T

 

[gorganl2000]

it was me who had reliability issues. but they wasnt bad: oil pump failure, pulley failure, clutch problems, etc

but, i expect them. im pushing the 5e to the limit, and i know stuff will break. but youre taking it out of context. a turbo 5e will never be as reliable as a 4e due to the reasons i have stated above. im not saying it will be unreliable, just less reliable than a comparable 4e.

ok...cool...it was u then

u are saying ""that the 5e will never be as reliable as a 4e""........based on what "you" said..........do u follow me now??,,,,its not really adeqaute to make those kinds of blanket statements

i can say """a td series turbo will always outlast a garrett turbo""",,,,but is this true,,,,can i support this based on "my" experiences????

by the way starletrick........we solely having a discussion here.........so after this i assume we will be cool....right?!?!...........we can disagree and argue online....we both entitled to our opinions...........and i like a good discussion....so bring your points and i'm sure to bring mine

Reliability isn't an issue we can't take one example that had problems and say they are all unreliable that's madness! None of our 5e's have any problems I speak from experience hence I wanted to know what issues people had so we could elaborate..

T

thank you toby.....we dont really have many 5e problems ourselves.....

they are equal as far as i'm concerned....and i mean the reliability of the 5e and 4e

4e all the way! still alot to do as the head is still stock.. just a mild port n polish... the 4e can handle the same power the 5e can.. its all in the tune

well brownster made some made power back then and a few others i know.......so we all know the 4e can handle some power..........but the 5e has the record in terms of power also

 

[Toby@ToyTuning.com]

You don't build a 5e for power everyone knows you can get 350WHP + from a 4e that is not the question, you build a 5e for more useable power end of... If I had my way it would be 2000cc but I don't have the budget nore the time

 

[gaz_turbo1]

yeah that the main reason i went the 5e route, next to no lag and still powerfull enough without having to rev the crap out the engine

 

[StarletRick]

ok...cool...it was u then

u are saying ""that the 5e will never be as reliable as a 4e""........based on what "you" said..........do u follow me now??,,,,its not really adeqaute to make those kinds of blanket statements

i can say """a td series turbo will always outlast a garrett turbo""",,,,but is this true,,,,can i support this based on "my" experiences????

by the way starletrick........we solely having a discussion here.........so after this i assume we will be cool....right?!?!...........we can disagree and argue online....we both entitled to our opinions...........and i like a good discussion....so bring your points and i'm sure to bring mine

i said it, yes. but, i never ever enter a technical discussion on opinion. it is fact that a longer stroke in the same bore will cause more bearing wear if both motors are revved to the same limit. go ask anyone who builts engines. it is my opinion, but its also fact. it applies to any engine regardless of make or model.

you cant compare to a statement about a turbo being better, that is pure opinion, as both manufacturers make many many different turbos so that would be a generalisation and just opinion based. just because you had a bad experience with a turbo doesnt make that manufacturer "worse" than the other.

youre all jumping the gun it seems. i never said the 5e isnt reliable, on the scheme of things, it IS reliable, its just not as reliable as the equivelant 4e.

 

[gaz_turbo1]

rick is going on bout the rotation speed of what the pistons- rods have to travel, read that on 4e the piston travels at 3688 ft/min at 7.3k and the 5e travels at 4167 ft./min at 7.3k, so the the further they travel the more stress over a time period,

 

[gorganl2000]

thats exactly what im on about gaz. but apparently im wrong and these pure facts and simple physics are wrong.

oh well ^^

no ...your facts and physics are VERY right.....but sometimes we tend to say things on here and think that alot of the members will understand .....i know what u are saying, because i understand the principles behind it.........but a lot of the others may not (the not so technical)

gaz presented the data to back it up.....so now MOST should understand also

 

[gorganl2000]

i said it, yes. but, i never ever enter a technical discussion on opinion. it is fact that a longer stroke in the same bore will cause more bearing wear if both motors are revved to the same limit. go ask anyone who builts engines. it is my opinion, but its also fact. it applies to any engine regardless of make or model.----i AGREE fully

i never said the 5e isnt reliable, on the scheme of things, it IS reliable, its just not as reliable as the equivelant 4e.----this last part of the statement is a bit touchy, because in theory (as u outlined above and with which i agree) u are right,,,,but from the reality am not so sure

i realised a while back that things are not always what they appear to be....so i'm a bit cautious about these kinds of things