'Aggressive clutch' killed my new forged engines thrust bearings?!

[GlanzaTD04]

Aggressive clutches can and do cause wear or even failure to thrust bearings. When a clutch has a high clamp pressure plate fitted, the force required to disengage the clutch is increased in turn. When you apply that force via the clutch pedal acting on the fork you are potentially applying many hundreds of lbs of force on the crank. This force is resisted by the thrust bearings. Excessive use of the clutch e.g pedal down while at the lights, combined with a low idle could easily result in RAPID destruction.

This is a COMMON problem on early 4g63 engines. Search for crank walk if you don't believe me.

There are many variables, most of them outside of the engine builders control. No sense in bad mouthing anybody if you don't know all the facts.

yeah i can understand that they will cause more wear than normal but completly ruined after 800 miles..really? i always avoid having clutch down as practice, the car always idled at 1500. also the clutch never caused anywhere on my previous forged build after 8months? surely if they were built within tolerance and end play was checked then it should last surely?

oh yeh of course not, hence why ive not mentioned there name and mearly on here trying to get as many facts together before i start pointing fingers...

 

[Chris@CCM]

Did they put the t washers in the rite way round man I've ran Orc clutches (crazzy) on high mileage engines with no problem

 

[weeJohn]

Surely if there was enough end float to ram the crank against the thrust bearings enough to destroy them when the clutch was depressed, there would have been a slight change in idle speed when the clutch was in compared to when it was out?

 

[Iain@CRD]

Surely if there was enough end float to ram the crank against the thrust bearings enough to destroy them when the clutch was depressed, there would have been a slight change in idle speed when the clutch was in compared to when it was out?

I agree with this. The clutch wouldn't press that much to cause engine damage without the RPM being affected and the engine struggling to hold an idle. The engine would vibrate violently when the clutch was pressed if the clutch was set too aggressive, I'm surprised the car wouldn't stall everytime the clutch was engaged.

 

[GlanzaTD04]

Did they put the t washers in the rite way round man I've ran Orc clutches (crazzy) on high mileage engines with no problem

To be fair mate I wouldn't know but they seem to build these engines a lot so not sure this would be an oversight, i personally think its due to machining as there had been a lack of oil pressure plus the clutch was fine on my previous build, same slave cylinder, nothing changed within the transmission...

 

[GlanzaTD04]

I agree with this. The clutch wouldn't press that much to cause engine damage without the RPM being affected and the engine struggling to hold an idle. The engine would vibrate violently when the clutch was pressed if the clutch was set too aggressive, I'm surprised the car wouldn't stall everytime the clutch was engaged.

Precisely, the load of my 'aggressive clutch' would of dragged that much that it would of stalled the engine?! There was no noticeable change in driving of the vehicle but just low oil pressure on idle. Where do I stand with all this?

 

[turboloon]

i personally think if the company built your engine surely they should've gave you a warranty with it as well,take it to a small claims court,you ain't got nothing to lose,a couple hundred quid!!

 

[Texx]

Was it a 'drive in drive out' service? Did the company build, supply, and install the engine before handing the car back to you in a drivable state?

Have you any photos of the damage done to the engine?

 

[MARK@CMBAUTOS]

Was it a 'drive in drive out' service? Did the company build, supply, and install the engine before handing the car back to you in a drivable state?

X2
also Is the main oil relief valve tight on the bottom of ur engine ? A customer once had one rattle slack and it caused very low oil pressure once tightened it was fine but he noticed soon enough and it caused no issues

 

[Guye]

Did they put the t washers in the rite way round man I've ran Orc clutches (crazzy) on high mileage engines with no problem

X2. I've been running the same ORC clutch kit for the last 6 years. I know of the crank walk issue on the early 4G63 engines but I always assumed that was a manufacturing flaw. Some of the replies make for interesting reading.

 

[Fatman]

X2. I've been running the same ORC clutch kit for the last 6 years. I know of the crank walk issue on the early 4G63 engines but I always assumed that was a manufacturing flaw. Some of the replies make for interesting reading.

It was largely resolved in the latter engines from design improvements.

I do not mean to say this is what happened to your engine, more that it's within the realm of possibility that a clutch can contribute to this type of failure. The commonly held (going by responses to this thread) belief that a clutch is a completely separate entity and couldn't possibly effect this damage is false.

I would also be interested to see some detailed (read: good camera) photos of the damage.

 

[gg205rob]

X2. I've been running the same ORC clutch kit for the last 6 years. I know of the crank walk issue on the early 4G63 engines but I always assumed that was a manufacturing flaw. Some of the replies make for interesting reading.

The 4g63 crankwalk issue is due to the design not the manufacture. The later engines had a change in design to try and stop the issue.

An agressive clutch could cause this issue although if the engine was built within tolerance it is very unlikely that it would happen in such a short distance, especially with other people running the same set up with no issues.

Are the con rods in these engines piston located or crank located?

 

[GlanzaTD04]

i personally think if the company built your engine surely they should've gave you a warranty with it as well,take it to a small claims court,you ain't got nothing to lose,a couple hundred quid!!

yeah i think the sales and services goods act 1972 covers me for atleast some warranty as the engine was not built fit for purpose, just got to look into the legal aspect of things, it would be a £100 taking them to court, alot of effort but its the principal now. how can you say you cant run a exedy paddle clutch if others do??!

 

[GlanzaTD04]

Was it a 'drive in drive out' service? Did the company build, supply, and install the engine before handing the car back to you in a drivable state?

Have you any photos of the damage done to the engine?

hiya mate, i took block crank and pistons, they farmed out machining work and built up block, sump and timed up engine. I left them with the clutch and flywheel for them to install but they lost these! i will try obtain photos today hopefully..will keep you posted! cheers bud!

 

[GlanzaTD04]

X2
also Is the main oil relief valve tight on the bottom of ur engine ? A customer once had one rattle slack and it caused very low oil pressure once tightened it was fine but he noticed soon enough and it caused no issues

that was my issue as i was loosing oil pressure on idle which would point at the relief valve, as they sealed the sump i can only imagine they would/should check operation of the valve?

 

[GlanzaTD04]

It was largely resolved in the latter engines from design improvements.

I do not mean to say this is what happened to your engine, more that it's within the realm of possibility that a clutch can contribute to this type of failure. The commonly held (going by responses to this thread) belief that a clutch is a completely separate entity and couldn't possibly effect this damage is false.

I would also be interested to see some detailed (read: good camera) photos of the damage.

i agree with you there mate, i just feel that there should be no crank movement/walk if the crank was that tight with the bearings then the clutch surely should be squeezing the bearings causing that much wear especially after 2 weeks/800 miles and especially as others use this clutch with the same build by them?! yes me too, sounds like its really done some significant damage tho rep added to all for your advise, it really helps me being in this position!

 

[GlanzaTD04]

letter to company...

Whilst I appreciate your diagnosis to my oil pressure problem in relation to the thrust bearings, I don’t agree with the opinion of your machinist’s.


The Stage 2 engine is advertised being rated to 320bhp however this raised the question of which clutch spring rate you would recommend. The clutch fitted to the engine was stage 2 and should be cross compatible with your product. Prior to the strip down and rebuild of my engine I operated, for 8 months, this clutch with a fully forged build and did not experience any of the downfalls or issues present at this time. Please note you do sell an uprated Exedy clutch as well as other more aggressive clutches with no warning, no recommendation of uprating other parts or possible damage which may be caused to other components.

Also, a member on the forum (Sam_Brian) had exactly the same build by yourselves with exactly the same clutch, he experienced no problems at all with this clutch and neither experienced low oil pressure problems, this therefore provides no blame on the clutch used as you have mentioned. If the load of the clutch was to blame by squeezing the bearings then this would result in tremendous drag on the crank, lowering engine rpm or stalling the car, also causing engine vibration which would also deem the vehicle undrivable.

On collection of the engine there was no mention of this issue with putting an uprated clutch on the supplied engine even though this is carried out by many people with the same setup and causing no issues even with more vicious clutches. When the engine build was first incepted I supplied my original clutch and flywheel for fitment. The box containing these and other essential engine assembly parts was disregarded until final collection.

During previous conversation we in depth discussed the strength and longevity of the ACL bearings. Many times you stated the bearings would not fail and the clutch would almost certainly deteriorate beforehand. Subsequently I changed the clutch to ensure this was not the reason for the low oil pressure. A contradiction seems to have been brought to light and upon your diagnostic report you have noted the clutch has caused the failure of the bearings not the other way as you had previously stated. My firm belief and other professionals within the industry is that there has been an error in the manufacture, tolerance setting or machining of the build. An identical case of low oil pressure has been documented on the forum before by black_mamba which the same build and same clutch, on further investigation this was also found to be down to the quality of the machining/build.

 

[weeJohn]

Well written letter, I hope they respond to it and dont ignore it. I would go to a Solicitor and have a chat with them about it, 1st meeting and letter is usually free anyway.

 

[turboloon]

as above^^^

 

[H_D]

You will need to speak to a solicitor who deals with consumer and general contract law...Alternatively you can take it straight to small claims county court yourself where they process claims of upto £5000.