Manifold RANT

[Texx]

this is a rant i dont expect it to do/change anything but just get read.

Sorry, I don't see your point. Your complaining because a trader has seen a sales opportunity and offers some input and advice based on their previous experience in a hope that if there is some business to be had it may come their way.

Traders are here for a reason, to trade, giving advice is in addition to their service. By all means, you are free to put your opinion across but my personal opinion is I'd happily listen to the advice of a TGTT trader knowing what boxes they need to tick before they are allowed to trade here on TGTT. However, saying that I would never just take the advice of only one person and would carry out my own research before spending money on something I may or may not need. People don't have to buy something just because it's offered to them, but that doesn't mean that someone is trying to sell them something that they do not need.

I don't believe Toyota put much R&D into casting a lump of iron into a manifold shape so they could bolt a turbo to a 1.3 engine and run 0.65bar of boost. The EP82/EP91 was designed and built as a cheap hot hatch, not some Formula 1 race winner. My stock manifold cracked after 55k miles at stock boost, so that doesn't say much for Toyota's R&D of that manifold. If that much R&D was carried out, Toyota wouldn't have left a big restriction in the runner of No.3 cylinder.

 

[Shorty]

i think hes got a point the stock mani is perfectly good and so is the stock ecu and stock fpr and stock injectors and stock tmic untill you alter the stock boost then its all fairly restictive and rubish! every part can be improved upon hence uprated mani's and other uprated parts to go with the uprated performance

 

[Johnny_C]

the only mani worth buying for an upgrade is WEPR.
ive had experience/feedback on a few different types,and thats the only one i would recomend.

 

[Jay]

I think it all depends on the application.

Let's get things straight - Toyota did a good job on the standard unit.

The majority have lasted over 10 years without replacement so to say they are a bad design is unfair. Especially when they are built for stock boost and reliability. New ones are circa £115 plus vat from Toyota BTW.

For anyone running more power than standard then it certainly makes sense to remove the restrictions present and I would not expect the standard manifold to cope anymore than I would expect the rest of the standard exhaust system to.

Yes I have been stung with shite quality manifolds too but to say the stock manifold is up to the job of a high-power application is a little too much to expect.

 

[hardcoreep]

stock manifolds can flow just as good as the jam and any other aftermarket mani when its ported and polished...FACT

If you believe that then you're crazy. The physics of it doesn't add up. I tested my Cruise manifold back to back with my stock manifold. With no other modifications there was an instant 13whp gain. The reason the tubular manifold flows better is because it has a larger internal volume that the stock manifold and there is NO WAY to get the stock manifold to the same volume as an uprated one. The stock manifold has a starting diameter of 28mm. However that isn't consistent to the outlet. My Cruise manifold was a consistent 38mm to the outlet.

aftermarket manis crack just like stock ones do...FACT

All manifolds crack, but for different reasons.

stock manis cost 1/10 of the cost of a aftermarket mani...FACT

And 87 octane costs less than 99 octane, that doesnt negate the benefit of spending the extra money. You cannot get the stock manifold to provide the same level of performance across the board as an upgraded one. You might port it to perform better but that's its.

Please enlighten yourself if you have the time.
http://hardcore.ep91.com/engine_manifold.html
http://hardcore.ep91.com/engine_manifold2.html
http://hardcore.ep91.com/engine_manifold3.html

 

[GT_Irl]

the only mani worth buying for an upgrade is WEPR.ive had experience/feedback on a few different types,and thats the only one i would recomend.

ouch! Bit of a generalisation there lad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldent be happier with my SPS, massive difference, definite gains and superb service!

 

[HYBRID]

if you believe that then you're crazy. The physics of it doesn't add up. I tested my cruise manifold back to back with my stock manifold. With no other modifications there was an instant 13whp gain. The reason the tubular manifold flows better is because it has a larger internal volume that the stock manifold and there is no way to get the stock manifold to the same volume as an uprated one. The stock manifold has a starting diameter of 28mm. However that isn't consistent to the outlet. My cruise manifold was a consistent 38mm to the outlet.


All manifolds crack, but for different reasons.


And 87 octane costs less than 99 octane, that doesnt negate the benefit of spending the extra money. You cannot get the stock manifold to provide the same level of performance across the board as an upgraded one. You might port it to perform better but that's its.

Please enlighten yourself if you have the time.
http://hardcore.ep91.com/engine_manifold.html
http://hardcore.ep91.com/engine_manifold2.html
http://hardcore.ep91.com/engine_manifold3.html

Well said Rory!!!

 

[affy]

i been reading threads about aftermarket manis and stock manis and porting stock manis. its funny how the the sellers of aftermarket parts will always tell you that the stock mani is crap and they even think that even if your 4e is stock it should still have an uprated mani.


i just hate when people go around stating stuff as fact and saying the best option is to buy stuff from them.
i just hate it when people say stuff but cant prove it by backing up what they say,

heres some facts.

stock manifolds can flow just as good as the jam and any other aftermarket mani when its ported and polished...FACT
here's my fact sir, this is what a stock manifold does when you go over the factory boost limit, and this happend on my car, this piston belongs to me and i have put it ina glass stand and will be a sovenier in my museum basically the gases bounce back on the restrictor and force they way BACK into the pistons......the result.............BANG

aftermarket manis crack just like stock ones do...FACT
yeah if you buy any of these they will

stock manis cost 1/10 of the cost of a aftermarket mani...FACT
they cost that much because it equals to no more than 0.6 bar off boost


the only...and i mean the ONLY benefits from an aftermarket mani is its lighter than the stock one.
you sure about that, i have bought a few mild steel ones and they are heavier indicating that it can widthstand more pressure (boost) i have held a zisco manifold and am tellign you its heavy.


but hey its shiny (oooooohhhh aaaawwww), you can brag about it to friends, "i have greddy fmic, sard bov, tong hybrid ct9, hks fuel rail, _____ MANIFOLD, blah blah blah", and it might even come with a cool sticker for you to put on your car.
i once had a stock manifold and i was tellign everyone ewwwwwwww look at that old rusty bastad

i think if you have the money to spend then hey buy w.e makes u happy. but its just so stupid when some1 is told by a seller that they should buy an aftermarket mani when they are running stock boost levels or something like 0.8bar. these manis were R&D to hold up stock boost. so of course if your pushing 21 psi you should get a mild steel one.
you do no that even at stock boost you can still damage car by driving it hard. so maybe the traders were suggesting that if you want to boot around in stock boost its safer to do it in aftermarket mani as there are no restrictions?

idk just my thoughts. anyone have input
just my thoughts as i've actually tried and researched the stock and aftermarket manifold,

peace people

 

[hardcoreep]

Lol! On that last one.

 

[nexia201]

i had autobahn and its pure SHIT and now i have a zisco one which i wouldnt part with even if given more money than paid for ! its the mildsteel one as i want reliability not fancyness . and i give it a hard job so it must be very well built to withstand the beating (i have no doubt of zisco's ability to build them ) i have seen others on here and im not gona say that they are shit as im sure the traders on here offer some quality parts but iv seen these being done and the quality even the material used is second to none

but i wouldnt just say zisco manifold are the best to buy just cos i have one of his manifolds , when you try all the manifolds there are around then yes you can say this or that is the best if not you just cannot

as for the standard manifold is the cause of that ringland damage because of its restriction it doesnt make sence as i had problems like that twice once on pistons no2 and no3 and now on number 2 and it was the engine running lean not the mani as there is no restriction in the zisco manifold but it still happened

 

[ruggiero06]

29 replies lol...not bad for a pissy rant that i thought would get 4 view, 2 posts and fall to the bottom never to be seen again :]

 

[Sheldon]

as for the standard manifold is the cause of that ringland damage because of its restriction it doesnt make sence as i had problems like that twice once on pistons no2 and no3 and now on number 2 and it was the engine running lean not the mani as there is no restriction in the zisco manifold but it still happened

yes... but its a fact that the restriction builds heat in the 3 runner and leads to ringland failure.

 

[Johnny_C]

ouch! Bit of a generalisation there lad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldent be happier with my SPS, massive difference, definite gains and superb service!

as ive said,ive seen other mani and had experience with them.
a mild steel wepr one is the choice for me.

 

[munday]

i been reading threads about aftermarket manis and stock manis and porting stock manis. its funny how the the sellers of aftermarket parts will always tell you that the stock mani is crap and they even think that even if your 4e is stock it should still have an uprated mani.


i just hate when people go around stating stuff as fact and saying the best option is to buy stuff from them.
i just hate it when people say stuff but cant prove it by backing up what they say,

heres some facts.

stock manifolds can flow just as good as the jam and any other aftermarket mani when its ported and polished...FACT
here's my fact sir, this is what a stock manifold does when you go over the factory boost limit, and this happend on my car, this piston belongs to me and i have put it ina glass stand and will be a sovenier in my museum basically the gases bounce back on the restrictor and force they way BACK into the pistons......the result.............BANG

aftermarket manis crack just like stock ones do...FACT
yeah if you buy any of these they will

stock manis cost 1/10 of the cost of a aftermarket mani...FACT
they cost that much because it equals to no more than 0.6 bar off boost


the only...and i mean the ONLY benefits from an aftermarket mani is its lighter than the stock one.
you sure about that, i have bought a few mild steel ones and they are heavier indicating that it can widthstand more pressure (boost) i have held a zisco manifold and am tellign you its heavy.


but hey its shiny (oooooohhhh aaaawwww), you can brag about it to friends, "i have greddy fmic, sard bov, tong hybrid ct9, hks fuel rail, _____ MANIFOLD, blah blah blah", and it might even come with a cool sticker for you to put on your car.
i once had a stock manifold and i was tellign everyone ewwwwwwww look at that old rusty bastad

i think if you have the money to spend then hey buy w.e makes u happy. but its just so stupid when some1 is told by a seller that they should buy an aftermarket mani when they are running stock boost levels or something like 0.8bar. these manis were R&D to hold up stock boost. so of course if your pushing 21 psi you should get a mild steel one.
you do no that even at stock boost you can still damage car by driving it hard. so maybe the traders were suggesting that if you want to boot around in stock boost its safer to do it in aftermarket mani as there are no restrictions?

idk just my thoughts. anyone have input
just my thoughts as i've actually tried and researched the stock and aftermarket manifold,

peace people

The OP was talking about a PORTED mani...you had a non ported one when you fucked your engine :homer:

And on a standard CT9 you dont want larger diameter runners because you loose response, as long as they match up to the ports on the head then you are all good

 

[ruggiero06]

The OP was talking about a PORTED mani...you had a non ported one when you fucked your engine :homer:

And on a standard CT9 you dont want larger diameter runners because you loose response, as long as they match up to the ports on the head then you are all good

some people will just post stuff without reading...makes u look like an ass though lol

but just on that one part the rest of the post is actually quite informative...

i dont have a grudge against uprated manis...im actually buying one soon. i think its pretty shitty when some1 has a legiment problem or question about their mani and the response they get is hey come buy a new mani from my shop. like i could simply ask how much it weighs and i bet some ass will try and sell me something. its just annoying...and when ur annoyed you rant hence the creation of this thread.

i did learn some stuff though

 

[hardcoreep]

And on a standard CT9 you dont want larger diameter runners because you loose response, as long as they match up to the ports on the head then you are all good

I don't know where u got that idea. The first thing I noticed was an increase in response and a better overall powerband. The dyno sheet backed this up clearly indicating that the torque curve started earlier.

Please note i had a Cruise manifold of which I suspected they actually tested the runner diameters and didn't just mock something up. Their 4E manifold was 38mm and the 5E manifold was 40mm+. Their reasoning seemed quite clear, the manifold provides enough internal volume between the head and the small CT9 exhaust housing. I dont know what the runner diameter are on other manifolds so maybe that's why you maybe experienced a drop in response.

 

[Texx]

these manis were R&D to hold up stock boost.

OK, lets take a closer look at one of these manifolds that were allegedly put through R&D to withstand a stock boost pressure of 0.65bar.

This particular manifold was removed from my car after 55,000 miles. The cars engine was stock. Stock CAT, stock intake, stock turbo and stock boost pressure.

As you can see from this photo, the manifold has cracked in the upper section of cyl No.3 runner directly opposite the restriction caused by the turbo mounting stud recess.

If we then flip the manifold over and look at the collector, it is now apparent that the manifold has cracked all of the way through from the center of the collector to the outside upper section of cyl No.3 runner. This is clearly down the build up of heat caused by the restriction in cyl No.3 runner as the crack is directly opposite the restriction.

It then makes you wonder that if the restriction in cyl No.3 runner of the stock manifold creates enough heat to crack a piece of cast iron all the way through from the inside to the outside when still running a stock boost level along with stock intake and exhaust restrictions, then what would it be doing to the piston in cyl No.3 after you've removed the stock intake and exhaust restrictions and increased the boost level to 0.8bar. Hence the advice, replace the stock manifold.

Don't fool yourself into thinking Toyota spent time and money researching and developing the stock manifold for a 4E-FTE, it just didn't happen. They would have sent a request to their engine department to modify an already known good engine i.e. the 4E-FE, into a turbocharged application. The engine dept would have then designed a manifold that would enable them to bolt a turbocharger to a 4E-FE. I'd put money on the fact that more time was spent altering the position of the turbo than flow testing the manifold, as long as the final output of the engine met the initial request criteria then it would of been signed off ready to go. The restriction in runner No.3 wouldn't have been in the original design of the manifold, it would of been an outcome of the manufacturing process. If Toyota even thought it to be a problem they would have likely decided to play a numbers game the same as most manufacturers would do in a similar situation. For example, if they built 10,000 motors and only 50 failed within the warranty period because of that particular issue, it would of likely been decided that it would be cheaper to just replace the failed units under warranty than to go back and spend additional time and money redesigning the stock manifold.

Manufacturers are in the business of making money. They will design something to last the length of the warranty period, after that time it becomes the owners responsibility to pick up the bill of any repair, which ultimately means returning to the manufacturer and spending more money with them on replacement parts. They don't want to sell you a car that lasts forever, they want it to fail at some point, preferably when the warranty period has expired so you will either go back to them for replacement parts or go back to them to buy a new vehicle.

 

[TurboDave]

Every aftermarket manifold I have ever had has cracked and ive had a good selection. When my one fitted now cracks again Ill be doing a massive porting job on a standard one and running 1.3 bar through it.

 

[Sheldon]

Every aftermarket manifold I have ever had has cracked and ive had a good selection. When my one fitted now cracks again Ill be doing a massive porting job on a standard one and running 1.3 bar through it.

standard mountings old?

 

[Texx]

Every aftermarket manifold I have ever had has cracked and ive had a good selection.

Out of interest, what manifolds have you had that have cracked and where have they cracked? Have they cracked around a weld or actually through the manifold material?