who runs aftermarket ecu's?

Guye

Guye

Lifer
Toyota T23 said:
Well hopefully some one knows, and will post it here..
Click to expand...
I'm interesteed to see this as well. @gorgan I think Dynatune is finally up and running, maybe we should hurry before it shuts down for a year again :) (this is the main reason why mappable ecu's aren't really an option for us over here...no tuning support, or if you needed it badly your're screwed)
 
T

Timmy

Member +
Here goes i think alot of people under estimate how much the these ecu's can adjust themselves. These ecu are being used in countries with as little as 85ron fuel without problems. People also seem to be able to run hybrids, td04's and k24's off them.
Using the mines ecu and safc will give you some benefit over the stock ecu as ignition side of things will still self adjust not to mention limters for boost, speed revs are changed also. Tho it an expensive way to do things as emanage + fcd + sld will work out cheaper.
Also from all the research i have done, i have never heard of any official pre programmed ecu's tuned for anything other than a ct9 with the exception of some HRF units which are clearly labled. IMO i don't think jam ect reprogram these ecu's there's no way to do it, all they can do is flash on another chip for a different tune and tbh if you going for something these ecu's can't handle your gonna be looking at standalone. Also this basicaly would cost the same as making one fresh.
And my final point is that ultimatly the big jap tuners on their cars don't use standalone themselves they tend to use the latest hks v-cons which are a piggy back, the resolution of the maps is much greater than the apexi pfc for example to match this in standalone you're talking top of the range motechs.

EDIT:
Forgot to mention i think alot of the this ecu is mapped for ect. Is not helping to keep the price resonable for these unit as some people believe anything. They're all just boost up maps.
 
T

Toyota T23

Member +
newguye said:
I'm interesteed to see this as well. @gorgan I think Dynatune is finally up and running, maybe we should hurry before it shuts down for a year again :) (this is the main reason why mappable ecu's aren't really an option for us over here...no tuning support, or if you needed it badly your're screwed)
Click to expand...


Why dont you just buy a wide band kit, not that much money..
Then you can share it :)
 
Ted

Ted

Member +
i had jay wideband test my car with td04 at 0.9 bar using jam racing ecu , walbro pump and standard injectors. reading was 11.2 at high revs.

when i let the jam set up with minor mods on a ct9 the result was similar. i can only conclude that the jam can adjust quite a lot. i drive this car quite a lot so if it picks a safe map over the optimum that emanage can provide im happy with that. and i dont have to get it tuned every time i add mods.
 
Guye

Guye

Lifer
Toyota T23 said:
Why dont you just buy a wide band kit, not that much money..
Then you can share it :)
Click to expand...
LOL!!! Some people have "tuning" equipment and programs and do their own thing. Trust me on this one...giving a monkey doctor's implements don't turn the monkey into a doctor. Gorgan and I have seen "tuned" cars go bang shortly afterwards, or simply lack power expected. I'm not one for trial and error since I only have the one engine. If I can't get it done right I simply will not do it. Luckily the Jam ecu seems to be doing it for me.
 
Last edited:
Gee

Gee

Member +
gorganl2000 said:
@ Gee
1)""""MINE's AND a SAFC? Kinda defeats the object of a standalone ECU? Plus, as the car I am assuming is based in Japan, they would have the facilities to map the ECU on that actual vehicle."""car is based in jamaica, so i would assume the sfac is used to tweek the fuelling..this car has been proven time and time again.......and i am sure that full standalones require minor tweeks to suit different scenerios, even if doing the same exact event....the aim is to get a little bit better all the time

2)""""Dont the SARD/Mine's etc also have something like this in place? They seem to run rich....""""" yup they tend to run rich........but sometimes people make it seem as if only the preprogrammed/OEM ecu runs rich........the standalones tend to be set a bit rich also.........however, may not be as rich as the jam/blitz/oem unit ...but some richness none the less........and i can remember your maps were a little rich.....which u are quite happy with

3) """"Hmmm...yes MAPPED to your car. But nobody unless you live in Japland can get this done. Some aftermarket ECU's are also CLOSED loop I believe, so ur car wont blow up if a bad tank of fuel is used."""""""".........u did say """" NO constraints, such as money, time...good tuner to map etc"""" this earlier.......so assuming a perfect world.....that's what i would want

good to hear some standalones will prevent this from happening

wow...this is hard work.....lol
Click to expand...

1) So basically your saying these ECU's are just as good as full replacement ECU's? A standalone ECU can be mapped from scratch, MINE's etc can not. Ofcourse every ECU is going to need tweaking, they are there to be tweaked! But having to purchase a fuel computer to wire in to a standalone ECU to amend the fueling again defeats the object of a standalone ECU IMO, thats all.

2) Yes, mine was rich up top. Like you say, the perfect tune/getting the best out of your engine is all dependant on what YOU want and use the car for. My car is used for everything. Track, drag..shopping :D

With a standalone I have the choice to run rich or not. With the Blitz/SARD etc you do not. You get what your are given, unless again you buy ANOTHER fuel computer to alter the fueling.

3) But we do have constraints...well if you have a Mines/Blitz/SARD you do :D
I'm sure there are also standalones that let you have multiple maps than can be changed by a flick of a switch, so no problem there again.

I must say, I really do not know jack shit when it comes to mapping/tuning. Well not that much. I'm just looking at logical answers and using common sense. I am not a 'standalone' fanboy. I looked into all ECU's before purchasing a standalone and from my research, standalone seemed to be the best way to go.

Whats so hardwork? Are you trying to convince people 1 is better than the other or not?
 
Guye

Guye

Lifer
"I must say, I really do not know jack shit when it comes to mapping/tuning. Well not that much. I'm just looking at logical answers and using common sense. I am not a 'standalone' fanboy. I looked into all ECU's before purchasing a standalone and from my research, standalone seemed to be the best way to go."

In the strictest sense of the word the Jam, Mines & Blitz units are standalone units aswell. There is just no feature that allows the user to change maps/tune like other aftermarket standalone ecu may offer. I do find it interesting that some member have noticed the tendancy for the ecu to remap itself based on the sensor inputs. My question...is there any solid proof or recorded data showing this to be the case? I have heard of a guy running a TD04l who changed setting three times, and on each occassion the Jam ecu adjusted fueling according to the boost increases. That's just hearsay though. What attracted me to the units besides the testimonials and the fact I don't need a tuner, was the fact that MINES, TRD, BLITZ, JAM, companies such as this invested time and R&D into making an ecu just for the starlet. The reputation of these tuners alone lead me to think they wouldn't make useless junk or cut corners. I want to learn even more about what these ecu can do and what their limits are...how far can they go? Any experiences will be welcomed.
 
T

Toyota T23

Member +
ted said:
i had jay wideband test my car with td04 at 0.9 bar using jam racing ecu , walbro pump and standard injectors. reading was 11.2 at high revs.

when i let the jam set up with minor mods on a ct9 the result was similar. i can only conclude that the jam can adjust quite a lot. i drive this car quite a lot so if it picks a safe map over the optimum that emanage can provide im happy with that. and i dont have to get it tuned every time i add mods.
Click to expand...

Well 11,2 is DAMN rich, they are playing it VERY safe.
 
H

hardcoreep

Member +
daveburwash said:
How do these pre programmed ecu's run more than 1 bar of boost an a stock map sensor?
Click to expand...
When your car exceeds its programming it looks back at the last values. The ECU is programmed to run rich at the top end of the scale so its continues to deliver fuel at the duty cycle it last received. The car will continue to use up that fuel until it triggers the knock sensor from running lean. Jim Wolf, the Nissan ECU bigwig told me this. I've run up to 19psi on the stock MAP sensor with no problems. The need for a higher MAP sensor is for fine tuning and based on how far yah want to go up in boost.

As for a/f, my Access surprised me. A lot of people seem to believe that the stock fueling system has a very low tolerance. I knew from my own experience that the duty cycle of the injectors is the key to fuel delivery, no matter how big your pump is. My a/f started lean off the charts at 22:1, the dyno operator had to adjust the scale because his started at 18:1. After 5000rpm the a/f went to 10.4:1 all the way to the 8000rpm redline, all on the stock fuel system. I suspected that a)turning the boost up to its full max would net more power because the extra airflow would eat up the excess fuel, and b) it was obvious that custom tuning would help the power output as we tend to run about 12:1 for turbo cars here on 90-octane. I suspected that the high a/f is due to the car trying to stave off detonation due to the aggressive timing curves. This is why I have the Emanage.

Also you guys are lucky. The companies that provide these standalones are mostly in your own countries, not here in Jamaica. I know of know one using a standalone with a plug and play EP71/82/91 harness. Everyone one I know has had to pull their car apart and re-wire this is because most of these system, to access the higher functions do not use the stock sensors. Secondly with a standalone you have to add in the dyno time, get stuck with one tuner, situations which aren't pleasant here. Pre-programmed FTW in my book.
 
Last edited:
Gee

Gee

Member +
I think that is what attracts most people to the ECU's.

Plug and play
No tuner
Good results
Self learns...but to what extent nobody really knows I guess.

No self taught ECU can ever be as good as a standalone with human input (mapping) IMO.

Hey hardcore...why do you know so much man? :D

You do tuning/mechanics as a career?
 
T

Toyota T23

Member +
If they run A/F 11,2, then is is pretty easy to make it work.
Dont think it learns anything, but just run on the knocksensor(if you know what i mean)
Standalone ECU can do that to, but not quick enough for race engines, we only use it when we tune it, then we disable it again.
 
T

Timmy

Member +
Gee said:
I think that is what attracts most people to the ECU's.

No self taught ECU can ever be as good as a standalone with human input (mapping) IMO.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
But the cost of fitting and tuning a re programmable ecu or even safc is stupid for what you get in the uk.
 
T

Toyota T23

Member +
Could someone with JAM, MINES or what ever post dyno sheet, and lets se how good it looks.
Mine with megasquirt standalone ECU, and only 20min tuning on road.

1191070739_726_FT68446_rulletest_.jpg
 
Gee

Gee

Member +
Timmy said:
I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
But the cost of fitting and tuning a re programmable ecu or even safc is stupid for what you get in the uk.
Click to expand...

Another reason why I believe in countries that dont have as much facilities or resources prefer this bolt in self tuned ECU's.

Cost is also a big factor.

Seems its all about compromise I guess.

Buying a Blitz then attaching a SAFC still requires some tuning, which still costs money, unless you do it yourself, but most people dont have the knowledge.

With the cost you are likely to have paid for the ECU aswell (£300-400) I dont see much cash being saved.

I'm still learning..more so getting involved in this thread, so a lot of what I say maybe totally incorrect, so apologies in advance :D
 
H

hardcoreep

Member +
Toyota T23 said:
If they run A/F 11,2, then is is pretty easy to make it work.
Dont think it learns anything, but just run on the knocksensor(if you know what i mean)
Standalone ECU can do that to, but not quick enough for race engines, we only use it when we tune it, then we disable it again.
Click to expand...
The processor in most of these ECUs are just as fast as the standalone. The guys from MRT told me this because the chips in them are the same the manufacturers use. The PowerFC uses a 32bit unit. The Glanza uses a 16bit processor.

It runs on the knock sensor to learn the limits. It then logs those limits. This is the big difference between a standalone and a ECU. In ECU uses fuzzy logic to reach its predetermined path. So if timing is 10 it keeps advancing till 10degrees. If the knock sensor kicks in it will hold. If it find that it keeps holding at X then X becomes the target.

On a standalone 10 is 10, and it will go to 10 regardless. What happens is that the expensive standalones have fall back measures based on knock/error activity. However, that behavior again is set by the user.

The same is for fuel. This is why a lot of cars do great on the dyno and then blow up on the street. The duty cycle is dynamic on a ECU to its max, ie:EP82 won't run more than 60%DC on stock ECU. On a standalone you put in 50%DC then find yourself under heavy load and the injectors won't pass 50%DC then boom! So the bottomline is the information in the ECU.

For the standalone its some guy running a dyno. For the JAM/Blitz its a race team running around Tsukuba circuit all day for two months. For your stock ECU, its a team of 100 with virtually unlimited resources doing research and development for 3years all over the world.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top