CT9 vs TD12 vs TD04 - Pros & Cons
- Thread starter Texx
- Start date
bucketep91
Member +
What set-up had you running prior to the Hybrid? I honestly can't believe you would notice and "big improvement" over a stock ct9 if both turbos where running the same set-up.
And how long have you got it? Alot of CT9 hybrids last about 6-12 months as said somewhere in this thread. Would you still love it if you have to spend approx 500pounds plus labour everytime to replace it?
i fitted the hybrid in december, all supporting mods, s/s mani, decat, cat back system, fmic,hks actuator fcd rrfpr etc
when i swaped over from a standard ct9b and there was a big noticable difference. boost came on a lot harder and pulled to the red line.
i sold the car at the weekend so couldnt comment on how long the turbo will last but im sure it will last more than 6 to 12 months
weeJohn
Lifer
I didnt take the time to read all the posts here, just the first lot really, but I will add my input anyway.
A Imprezza TD04L on a CT9 mani and adaptor plate usually hits about 1 bar of boost about 3600 rpm, at 3200 rpm it is probably boosting about 9psi, and thats still going to give more performance than a CT9 running about 10 to 12 psi. You dont actually notice the lag until the boost reaches its limit, and even then, the cars not dead before that. You can safely run that with standard internals a FCD and FPR and keep decent fuel economy and driveability.
You can get smaller TD04 turbos, that use the same flange as the Imprezza one, but availability and reliability sound like what you prefer, and a TD04L at 10 psi gives you scope for a power increase (if you feel your trouser department needs a lift lol) and boost control using the internal gate is not really a problem with a half decent ecb.
But if I had a CT9 set up and was going to buy a new mani, I would go for a TD04 specific mani, theres no point in buying a cat and trying to teach it to bark. Plus lots of people are changing the older style 04 manis for newer styles and there is the possibility of picking up a good mani and turbo at a reasonable price.
A Imprezza TD04L on a CT9 mani and adaptor plate usually hits about 1 bar of boost about 3600 rpm, at 3200 rpm it is probably boosting about 9psi, and thats still going to give more performance than a CT9 running about 10 to 12 psi. You dont actually notice the lag until the boost reaches its limit, and even then, the cars not dead before that. You can safely run that with standard internals a FCD and FPR and keep decent fuel economy and driveability.
You can get smaller TD04 turbos, that use the same flange as the Imprezza one, but availability and reliability sound like what you prefer, and a TD04L at 10 psi gives you scope for a power increase (if you feel your trouser department needs a lift lol) and boost control using the internal gate is not really a problem with a half decent ecb.
But if I had a CT9 set up and was going to buy a new mani, I would go for a TD04 specific mani, theres no point in buying a cat and trying to teach it to bark. Plus lots of people are changing the older style 04 manis for newer styles and there is the possibility of picking up a good mani and turbo at a reasonable price.
well im running a standard ct9 turbo on an emu at 1 bar, and it is fun and very responsive, but i got the joy of road mapping my mates car running td04 and it just didnt even compare car in question ed (12345678), i was sad getting back in and driving my car . so for the money of 2nd hand td04's it seems the most resonable option, boost and lag issues arent serious as your already getting more pull from the td04 down low than the ct9 as stated above by weejohn.
. so for the money of 2nd hand td04's it seems the most resonable option, boost and lag issues arent serious as your already getting more pull from the td04 down low than the ct9 as stated above by weejohn. 
Fizturbo
Member +
X2
Great! info for sure
My 1st hybrid lasted me 6yrs but had to relpacin the oil seals twice which cost me extra 150 x 2 after the warranty had run out includin the balance.
MATTYBYRNEgt2008
Member +
fuck here was me just about to go off buying zisco ext gated mani and td12 turbo and now i read this has me so mixed up!!!
what to do???
god makes me think sometimes why did i get into starlets when i jus could have had a normal car
what to do???
god makes me think sometimes why did i get into starlets when i jus could have had a normal car
Fizturbo
Member +
Yep i got to that stage many times whre i felt like givin up after few bad experiances
You still got time to think before decide which route to take
Texx
Super Moderator
An interesting addition to this thread would be some video clips from different turbo set ups that show the speedo, rev counter and boost gauge during a pull from 50mph to 70mph in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears.
It may not provide a definitive comparison, but would give a better indication of the response times that could be expected from different set ups.
If any members have the ability to mount a video camera in their car and would be willing to do this, it would be very much appreciated. However if you do attempt this then please only do so in a safe manner where the speed limit allows and it's clear of traffic. Don't go breaking any speed limits or trying to film with your phone or camera in your hand whilst driving. We also don't want to see any videos of high speed full throttle runs, that's not the purpose here.
It may not provide a definitive comparison, but would give a better indication of the response times that could be expected from different set ups.
If any members have the ability to mount a video camera in their car and would be willing to do this, it would be very much appreciated. However if you do attempt this then please only do so in a safe manner where the speed limit allows and it's clear of traffic. Don't go breaking any speed limits or trying to film with your phone or camera in your hand whilst driving. We also don't want to see any videos of high speed full throttle runs, that's not the purpose here.
GT_Irl
Member +
Did you notice a good difference from 1bar to 1.2bar yourself? Good point, I might be tempted to give it another try and give the ecu a bit more time to figure it out.
Well I was just going on my own experience and threads I had seen in the past, but I would definitly like to hear from more people running 1.1 or even 1.2 bar on the standard turbo to see how they are finding it.
"im just saying that spending the money on a recon/brandnew ct9 hybrid and then running it at 1.2bar is in some cases asking the same exhaust housing to do exactly what your preaching against on a stock ct9.
so to summarise if you cant be arsed with unreliable ct9 hybrids and you cant be arsed with the slight td04 lag then get wepr or zisco to build you a gt25 kit. :haha:"
Ya, I totally agree with that. ct9 hybrids seem extremely hit and miss, why risk it!
finx
Member +
still havnt the time to finnish my initial post but some things i will add here in the mean time.
texx, spot on with the acis inlet manifold idea. aftermarket computer is a huge advantage with this set up but it would also be set up in configuration with a relay and shift light or other means of rpm trigger at a set rpm. better results will be achievable with a stand alone computer thou.
You have got the gist of the operation of it covered.
it creates higher airflow at higher rpm where it is desperately needed with a turbo such as the ct9, but it will also yield gains on any turbo setup providing it is tuned and set up correctly.
it predominantly increases engine torque rather than HP but it will have positive effects on both without having effects on response.
i dont have measurements off the top of my head but when i have some free time in the workshop ill take a look and see what i can get off them in terms of overall differences. its something i have been meaning to do but not gotten around to doing yet.
i have a heep of stuff still to add just need time.
cheers
Ryan
texx, spot on with the acis inlet manifold idea. aftermarket computer is a huge advantage with this set up but it would also be set up in configuration with a relay and shift light or other means of rpm trigger at a set rpm. better results will be achievable with a stand alone computer thou.
You have got the gist of the operation of it covered.
it creates higher airflow at higher rpm where it is desperately needed with a turbo such as the ct9, but it will also yield gains on any turbo setup providing it is tuned and set up correctly.
it predominantly increases engine torque rather than HP but it will have positive effects on both without having effects on response.
i dont have measurements off the top of my head but when i have some free time in the workshop ill take a look and see what i can get off them in terms of overall differences. its something i have been meaning to do but not gotten around to doing yet.
i have a heep of stuff still to add just need time.
cheers
Ryan
gorganl2000
Lifer
here are some pics of the 5efhe acis manifold (disassembled also)
all taken from www.tercelreference.com
lots of useful stuff can be found on there
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_2.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_3.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_4.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_5.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_6.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_7.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_8.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_9.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_10.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_11.jpg
all taken from www.tercelreference.com
lots of useful stuff can be found on there
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_2.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_3.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_4.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_5.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_6.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_7.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_8.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_9.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_10.jpg
http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/component_library/5efhe_intake_manifold_acis_11.jpg
Thought id chime in with a reply from a Tong Turbo point of view.
Since I’m probably the largest supplier of ct9 hybrids to the starlet market I thought I’d throw in my two pence.
This thread is good but has drifted in direction from the first questions of the op about what is better for his criteria, and sort of switched to a ct9 hybrid bashing session in some places with no specifics mentioned on many models of hybrid turbos in question.
It’s melded the use of the word ‘ct9 hybrid' as being discussed as one entity, which its clearly not.
This is a bit of an essay but no longer than some of the replies so sorry in advance.
By the sounds of things you’re just interested in a small increase in performance but not willing to loose much of your low boost response on your current turbo.
on the tdo4
To start with you use the term tdo4 pretty loosely. There are over 141 different variations of tdo4 turbo to choose from. They can be found on a lot of cars.. (click for info)
The common choice is the tdo4L-13g.
The problem with this turbo is it was designed for a bigger engine so unless your bang in the middle of its efficiency range boost wise, or running more boost to suite anything under one bar could be interprited as laggy and unresponsive if your used to the eye opening low to mid range a ct9 offers as a direct comparison.
the tdo4L-13g is cheap and in plentiful supply, but the hassle having to source things like oil and waterlines, gaskets as well as making up a bracket for the actuator + finding a suitable cooler kit and other issues like rotating the compressor housing is enough to put a lot off, more so if you’re not mechanically competent with tools and have to pay someone to do all the work.
On most td04l-13g applications ive sat in or driven, the power is pretty on/off under a bar, coming in one large dollop of power on some of the ghetto setups I’ve experienced. This is obviusly not a problem if you plan on running more boost down the line but i dont think you are?
This turbo can produce enough power to properly overwhelm the ep as an fwd car on the road.
A more suitable turbo is the IHI TFo35 found on the Subaru forester turbo. This turbo could possibly be perfect for your needs if you chose to go for a 3 prong manifold.
about hybrids & hi flow turbos in general
I can’t speak for other turbo suppliers on here but for me.
90% of the turbos I sell are the gt spec.
The two goals of the GT Spec is
There have been another three issues I know of with the o ring clip not being correctly tightened causing boost to escape.
6 - 12 months for reliability though???????????????????
Seriously. If that were the case maybe the customers like losing money.
If I were to believe the time scale some of you have branded on the comon hybrid i would not be in this business. . . .
Hybrids/hi flow turbos don’t just last this short amount of time. If maintained and used correctly reliability should not be an issue or questioned.
If it were the case and reliability was an issue the starlet forums would be littered with my ct9 hybrid has blown its seals posts which it’s not...
I have an early model gt spec with 20,000 miles of 1.1 bar open air use still going strong on one of my eps. And further proof are my customers.
Hi flow/hybrid turbos have a purpose and do represent great value for money for the ease conscious buyer.
Strictly speaking, the GT Spec is not a hybrid in the true sense of the word, but a hi flow turbo where only the compressor side has been modified along with some extensive porting of the waist gate + the use of a larger penny.
This is all that’s deemed necessary to achieve the two goals of the GT Spec bullet pointed above.
The latest versions are all based on the ct12 because of its bigger ar. (corresponding to an increase in overall power)
They come in both 8 and 9 blade turbine/shaft wheel versions.
This type of hi flow turbo will produce more power over a standard ct9 at 1 bar. At 1.1 bar, in some cases by as much as 20bhp dependant on supporting mods. I have dyno evidence on uksc to support this.
They are fully plug and play with the use of a samco hose kit to join onto the standard efi pipe. This means that your actuater, waterlines, oil feed + return all marry up as they should on a standard ct9. keeping the efi pipe has the added bonus of making even more torque also.
For these reasons it is an easy hassle free choice which suites a lot of peoples goals. Whether it is a slight increase in what is already supremely effective performance on road at this pressure(1bar) or chasing that 200+bhp goal reliably.(click for power to weight table)
It is easy to say 'just do a tdo4 swap' but in practice it can all be quite daunting in this starlet world, especially if you’re not competent with tools and have to pay labour for fitting.
Comparing a Gt Spec to a tdo4l-13g on cost is slightly biased towards the tdo4 judging by the costings of some tdo4 users in this thread. But which one is actualy cheaper? to fit a hybrid you need just the hybrid. To fit a tdo4 you need a mani + dump pipe + actuater + waterlines + oil line + oil return + intercooler etc etc etc(does anyone see my point?)
This hi flow type of turbo does have a limited scope compared to a tdo4L and its 1.4 bar potential.
But at 1bar, for its intended purpose of comfortably getting across 200bhp reliably (with 210 @ 1.1bar being the last dyno graph recorded for a recent gt spec b) you can stick it on a ported manifold and gutted cat with no issues.
In real world terms you’re not going to notice the slightly more power if any that the tod4l-13g can muster at the same boost(1bar) unless the road was straight.
About tongs hybrids and power after 15psi.
Mr Tong warrants the GT Spec to 1.2 bar.
I recommend 1.1 for daily driving. (That’s the pressure I drive mine at)
At whoever used dubseven as an example,
He holds any type of record for a hybrid and tested his to destruction.
This was a tongs based unit with only one of its type produced making it a poor choice to highlight as an example as only one was ever made. It used the standard ct9 core and a monstrous compressor wheel/housing grafted to it. The pairing subsequently didn’t last very long. The compressor wheel was huge(clicky), much much bigger than on a gt spec.
The problem was not with the ct9 hot side but the tiny core of the ct9 based hybrid. Iirc he boosted his for a while at 1.3bar before it went kaput.
He did comment after getting up and running with a tdo4L-13G setup that he preferred the power delivery of the hybrid turbo.
With this info in mind. . . .
On the td12
Allot of people are guilty in this thread of pigeon holing the td12 as being the same like for like as a normal hybrid but not basing their assumptions on any form of facts.
This is the best time to make crystal clear a few points about this relatively new turbo.
One point everyone has missed about it and makes the td12 unique compared to any other ct9-12 based hybrid is it uses the much larger tdo4 core and shaft wheel,
id only expect td owners to recognise the core difference. the turbine wheel is much much bigger than a standard ct9
The td12 uses the full tdo4 core and shaft wheel and a modiified/machined ct12 hot side. Hence the name td12
The latest versions also use a compressor snail from a tfo35 forester turbo, (in effect making it a td hybrid)
I don’t know any other hybrid for the starlet that is made in this way.
After his last frankinstein creation, Mr Tong pinpointed the ct9s core as the weak point on a higher boost application.
With the latest revision(3) of this externally gated turbo the td12 comes in three sizes of core dependant on what power/power delivery your after and what engine your using (4e or 5e) and is the default choice of turbo for a wepre power up kit and probably the ultimate hybrid for a starlet.
I can’t delve into boost thresholds or give cfm ratings as mr t keeps that private but the core sizes are.
On the standard ct9
Toyota knew what they were doing when they paired the ct9 with the 4efte. As discussed earlier in this thread full boost at 2500k is amazing for fast road car,
The only drawback is they can be breathless at higher rpms + creep issues
To people that say port your ct9, well you could do that but every turbo has a shelf life, some ct9s are 20 years old now. Tong Turbo sell ported ct9bs called the(rb spec) Considering Toyota charge over 880 for a ct9a, we charge close to a third of the price for a rebuilt 9 blade ct9b reconditioned and balanced with an enlarged waist gate + penny.
My recommendation to you Texx would be to either port your standard ct9b + port a standard manifold and turn the boost up to 1bar.
This is by far the cheapest option by a considerable amount compared to the other two basicaly costing fuck all, becuase of this it can’t be ignored.
If this does not satisfy your needs then start thinking about other turbos and how much power you exactly want.
Weather its chasing power(not in your case), or trying to find the best balance on road in a front wheel drive car to keep the work rate/lag down.
The latter is where a hybrid makes sense building up on what the standard ct9 has but also improving power right to the redline.
Brad has offered to give you a lift in his td12 at .8 the same pressure your running. I’m pretty sure that would give you an idea on weather the turbos for you or not.
ps. finx has done a minted thing by building a 5e engine around the ct9, im hoping to do the same.
Since I’m probably the largest supplier of ct9 hybrids to the starlet market I thought I’d throw in my two pence.
This thread is good but has drifted in direction from the first questions of the op about what is better for his criteria, and sort of switched to a ct9 hybrid bashing session in some places with no specifics mentioned on many models of hybrid turbos in question.
It’s melded the use of the word ‘ct9 hybrid' as being discussed as one entity, which its clearly not.
This is a bit of an essay but no longer than some of the replies so sorry in advance.
By the sounds of things you’re just interested in a small increase in performance but not willing to loose much of your low boost response on your current turbo.
on the tdo4
To start with you use the term tdo4 pretty loosely. There are over 141 different variations of tdo4 turbo to choose from. They can be found on a lot of cars.. (click for info)
The common choice is the tdo4L-13g.
The problem with this turbo is it was designed for a bigger engine so unless your bang in the middle of its efficiency range boost wise, or running more boost to suite anything under one bar could be interprited as laggy and unresponsive if your used to the eye opening low to mid range a ct9 offers as a direct comparison.
the tdo4L-13g is cheap and in plentiful supply, but the hassle having to source things like oil and waterlines, gaskets as well as making up a bracket for the actuator + finding a suitable cooler kit and other issues like rotating the compressor housing is enough to put a lot off, more so if you’re not mechanically competent with tools and have to pay someone to do all the work.
On most td04l-13g applications ive sat in or driven, the power is pretty on/off under a bar, coming in one large dollop of power on some of the ghetto setups I’ve experienced. This is obviusly not a problem if you plan on running more boost down the line but i dont think you are?
This turbo can produce enough power to properly overwhelm the ep as an fwd car on the road.
A more suitable turbo is the IHI TFo35 found on the Subaru forester turbo. This turbo could possibly be perfect for your needs if you chose to go for a 3 prong manifold.
about hybrids & hi flow turbos in general
I can’t speak for other turbo suppliers on here but for me.
90% of the turbos I sell are the gt spec.
The two goals of the GT Spec is
- to provide a cost effective replacement for all the aging ct9s out there that produces more power more effectively over a standard ct9
- as well as solving the creep issues associated with the standard ct9 when trying to run one at its optimum 15psi
There have been another three issues I know of with the o ring clip not being correctly tightened causing boost to escape.
6 - 12 months for reliability though???????????????????
Seriously. If that were the case maybe the customers like losing money.
If I were to believe the time scale some of you have branded on the comon hybrid i would not be in this business. . . .
Hybrids/hi flow turbos don’t just last this short amount of time. If maintained and used correctly reliability should not be an issue or questioned.
If it were the case and reliability was an issue the starlet forums would be littered with my ct9 hybrid has blown its seals posts which it’s not...
I have an early model gt spec with 20,000 miles of 1.1 bar open air use still going strong on one of my eps. And further proof are my customers.
Hi flow/hybrid turbos have a purpose and do represent great value for money for the ease conscious buyer.
Strictly speaking, the GT Spec is not a hybrid in the true sense of the word, but a hi flow turbo where only the compressor side has been modified along with some extensive porting of the waist gate + the use of a larger penny.
This is all that’s deemed necessary to achieve the two goals of the GT Spec bullet pointed above.
The latest versions are all based on the ct12 because of its bigger ar. (corresponding to an increase in overall power)
They come in both 8 and 9 blade turbine/shaft wheel versions.
This type of hi flow turbo will produce more power over a standard ct9 at 1 bar. At 1.1 bar, in some cases by as much as 20bhp dependant on supporting mods. I have dyno evidence on uksc to support this.
They are fully plug and play with the use of a samco hose kit to join onto the standard efi pipe. This means that your actuater, waterlines, oil feed + return all marry up as they should on a standard ct9. keeping the efi pipe has the added bonus of making even more torque also.
For these reasons it is an easy hassle free choice which suites a lot of peoples goals. Whether it is a slight increase in what is already supremely effective performance on road at this pressure(1bar) or chasing that 200+bhp goal reliably.(click for power to weight table)
It is easy to say 'just do a tdo4 swap' but in practice it can all be quite daunting in this starlet world, especially if you’re not competent with tools and have to pay labour for fitting.
Comparing a Gt Spec to a tdo4l-13g on cost is slightly biased towards the tdo4 judging by the costings of some tdo4 users in this thread. But which one is actualy cheaper? to fit a hybrid you need just the hybrid. To fit a tdo4 you need a mani + dump pipe + actuater + waterlines + oil line + oil return + intercooler etc etc etc(does anyone see my point?)
This hi flow type of turbo does have a limited scope compared to a tdo4L and its 1.4 bar potential.
But at 1bar, for its intended purpose of comfortably getting across 200bhp reliably (with 210 @ 1.1bar being the last dyno graph recorded for a recent gt spec b) you can stick it on a ported manifold and gutted cat with no issues.
In real world terms you’re not going to notice the slightly more power if any that the tod4l-13g can muster at the same boost(1bar) unless the road was straight.
About tongs hybrids and power after 15psi.
Mr Tong warrants the GT Spec to 1.2 bar.
I recommend 1.1 for daily driving. (That’s the pressure I drive mine at)
At whoever used dubseven as an example,
He holds any type of record for a hybrid and tested his to destruction.
This was a tongs based unit with only one of its type produced making it a poor choice to highlight as an example as only one was ever made. It used the standard ct9 core and a monstrous compressor wheel/housing grafted to it. The pairing subsequently didn’t last very long. The compressor wheel was huge(clicky), much much bigger than on a gt spec.
The problem was not with the ct9 hot side but the tiny core of the ct9 based hybrid. Iirc he boosted his for a while at 1.3bar before it went kaput.
He did comment after getting up and running with a tdo4L-13G setup that he preferred the power delivery of the hybrid turbo.
With this info in mind. . . .
On the td12
Allot of people are guilty in this thread of pigeon holing the td12 as being the same like for like as a normal hybrid but not basing their assumptions on any form of facts.
This is the best time to make crystal clear a few points about this relatively new turbo.
One point everyone has missed about it and makes the td12 unique compared to any other ct9-12 based hybrid is it uses the much larger tdo4 core and shaft wheel,
id only expect td owners to recognise the core difference. the turbine wheel is much much bigger than a standard ct9
The td12 uses the full tdo4 core and shaft wheel and a modiified/machined ct12 hot side. Hence the name td12
The latest versions also use a compressor snail from a tfo35 forester turbo, (in effect making it a td hybrid)
I don’t know any other hybrid for the starlet that is made in this way.
After his last frankinstein creation, Mr Tong pinpointed the ct9s core as the weak point on a higher boost application.
With the latest revision(3) of this externally gated turbo the td12 comes in three sizes of core dependant on what power/power delivery your after and what engine your using (4e or 5e) and is the default choice of turbo for a wepre power up kit and probably the ultimate hybrid for a starlet.
I can’t delve into boost thresholds or give cfm ratings as mr t keeps that private but the core sizes are.
- 1: SW- TD04L , CW-13T ,With the lowest lag of this series. Currently no testers. This turbo is ideal a previous version made 215 @ 1.1 bar
- 2:SW-TD04H , CW-13T ,(H stands for hi capacity) Currently an ealier model of this turbo made 190bhp at .7bar - there are currently two testers with new compressor housings. With cams and 5e this turbo is good for 250bhp and great response.
- 3: SW- TD04HL , CW-15G the largest turbo. I have one of these that I’m building up on a 5e atm. I’m pretty sure this combo is a match made in heaven
On the standard ct9
Toyota knew what they were doing when they paired the ct9 with the 4efte. As discussed earlier in this thread full boost at 2500k is amazing for fast road car,
The only drawback is they can be breathless at higher rpms + creep issues
To people that say port your ct9, well you could do that but every turbo has a shelf life, some ct9s are 20 years old now. Tong Turbo sell ported ct9bs called the(rb spec) Considering Toyota charge over 880 for a ct9a, we charge close to a third of the price for a rebuilt 9 blade ct9b reconditioned and balanced with an enlarged waist gate + penny.
My recommendation to you Texx would be to either port your standard ct9b + port a standard manifold and turn the boost up to 1bar.
This is by far the cheapest option by a considerable amount compared to the other two basicaly costing fuck all, becuase of this it can’t be ignored.
If this does not satisfy your needs then start thinking about other turbos and how much power you exactly want.
Weather its chasing power(not in your case), or trying to find the best balance on road in a front wheel drive car to keep the work rate/lag down.
The latter is where a hybrid makes sense building up on what the standard ct9 has but also improving power right to the redline.
Brad has offered to give you a lift in his td12 at .8 the same pressure your running. I’m pretty sure that would give you an idea on weather the turbos for you or not.
ps. finx has done a minted thing by building a 5e engine around the ct9, im hoping to do the same.
Thought id chime in with a reply from a Tong Turbo point of view.
Since I’m probably the largest supplier of ct9 hybrids to the starlet market I thought I’d throw in my two pence.
This thread is good but has drifted in direction from the first questions of the op about what is better for his criteria, and sort of switched to a ct9 hybrid bashing session in some places with no specifics mentioned on many models of hybrid turbos in question.
It’s melded the use of the word ‘ct9 hybrid' as being discussed as one entity, which its clearly not.
This is a bit of an essay but no longer than some of the replies so sorry in advance.
By the sounds of things you’re just interested in a small increase in performance but not willing to loose much of your low boost response on your current turbo.
on the tdo4
To start with you use the term tdo4 pretty loosely. There are over 141 different variations of tdo4 turbo to choose from. They can be found on a lot of cars.. (click for info)
The common choice is the tdo4L-13g.
The problem with this turbo is it was designed for a bigger engine so unless your bang in the middle of its efficiency range boost wise, or running more boost to suite anything under one bar could be interprited as laggy and unresponsive if your used to the eye opening low to mid range a ct9 offers as a direct comparison.
the tdo4L-13g is cheap and in plentiful supply, but the hassle having to source things like oil and waterlines, gaskets as well as making up a bracket for the actuator + finding a suitable cooler kit and other issues like rotating the compressor housing is enough to put a lot off, more so if you’re not mechanically competent with tools and have to pay someone to do all the work.
On most td04l-13g applications ive sat in or driven, the power is pretty on/off under a bar, coming in one large dollop of power on some of the ghetto setups I’ve experienced. This is obviusly not a problem if you plan on running more boost down the line but i dont think you are?
This turbo can produce enough power to properly overwhelm the ep as an fwd car on the road.
A more suitable turbo is the IHI TFo35 found on the Subaru forester turbo. This turbo could possibly be perfect for your needs if you chose to go for a 3 prong manifold.
about hybrids & hi flow turbos in general
I can’t speak for other turbo suppliers on here but for me.
90% of the turbos I sell are the gt spec.
The two goals of the GT Spec is
The failure rate of these turbos due to blown seals that I know of is one(Corey) in over 104 units ranging from the end of 2007 to now.
- to provide a cost effective replacement for all the aging ct9s out there that produces more power more effectively over a standard ct9
- as well as solving the creep issues associated with the standard ct9 when trying to run one at its optimum 15psi
There have been another three issues I know of with the o ring clip not being correctly tightened causing boost to escape.
6 - 12 months for reliability though???????????????????
Seriously. If that were the case maybe the customers like losing money.
If I were to believe the time scale some of you have branded on the comon hybrid i would not be in this business. . . .
Hybrids/hi flow turbos don’t just last this short amount of time. If maintained and used correctly reliability should not be an issue or questioned.
If it were the case and reliability was an issue the starlet forums would be littered with my ct9 hybrid has blown its seals posts which it’s not...
I have an early model gt spec with 20,000 miles of 1.1 bar open air use still going strong on one of my eps. And further proof are my customers.
Hi flow/hybrid turbos have a purpose and do represent great value for money for the ease conscious buyer.
Strictly speaking, the GT Spec is not a hybrid in the true sense of the word, but a hi flow turbo where only the compressor side has been modified along with some extensive porting of the waist gate + the use of a larger penny.
This is all that’s deemed necessary to achieve the two goals of the GT Spec bullet pointed above.
The latest versions are all based on the ct12 because of its bigger ar. (corresponding to an increase in overall power)
They come in both 8 and 9 blade turbine/shaft wheel versions.
This type of hi flow turbo will produce more power over a standard ct9 at 1 bar. At 1.1 bar, in some cases by as much as 20bhp dependant on supporting mods. I have dyno evidence on uksc to support this.
They are fully plug and play with the use of a samco hose kit to join onto the standard efi pipe. This means that your actuater, waterlines, oil feed + return all marry up as they should on a standard ct9. keeping the efi pipe has the added bonus of making even more torque also.
For these reasons it is an easy hassle free choice which suites a lot of peoples goals. Whether it is a slight increase in what is already supremely effective performance on road at this pressure(1bar) or chasing that 200+bhp goal reliably.(click for power to weight table)
It is easy to say 'just do a tdo4 swap' but in practice it can all be quite daunting in this starlet world, especially if you’re not competent with tools and have to pay labour for fitting.
Comparing a Gt Spec to a tdo4l-13g on cost is slightly biased towards the tdo4 judging by the costings of some tdo4 users in this thread. But which one is actualy cheaper? to fit a hybrid you need just the hybrid. To fit a tdo4 you need a mani + dump pipe + actuater + waterlines + oil line + oil return + intercooler etc etc etc(does anyone see my point?)
This hi flow type of turbo does have a limited scope compared to a tdo4L and its 1.4 bar potential.
But at 1bar, for its intended purpose of comfortably getting across 200bhp reliably (with 210 @ 1.1bar being the last dyno graph recorded for a recent gt spec b) you can stick it on a ported manifold and gutted cat with no issues.
In real world terms you’re not going to notice the slightly more power if any that the tod4l-13g can muster at the same boost(1bar) unless the road was straight.
About tongs hybrids and power after 15psi.
Mr Tong warrants the GT Spec to 1.2 bar.
I recommend 1.1 for daily driving. (That’s the pressure I drive mine at)
At whoever used dubseven as an example,
He holds any type of record for a hybrid and tested his to destruction.
This was a tongs based unit with only one of its type produced making it a poor choice to highlight as an example as only one was ever made. It used the standard ct9 core and a monstrous compressor wheel/housing grafted to it. The pairing subsequently didn’t last very long. The compressor wheel was huge(clicky), much much bigger than on a gt spec.
The problem was not with the ct9 hot side but the tiny core of the ct9 based hybrid. Iirc he boosted his for a while at 1.3bar before it went kaput.
He did comment after getting up and running with a tdo4L-13G setup that he preferred the power delivery of the hybrid turbo.
With this info in mind. . . .
On the td12
Allot of people are guilty in this thread of pigeon holing the td12 as being the same like for like as a normal hybrid but not basing their assumptions on any form of facts.
This is the best time to make crystal clear a few points about this relatively new turbo.
One point everyone has missed about it and makes the td12 unique compared to any other ct9-12 based hybrid is it uses the much larger tdo4 core and shaft wheel,
id only expect td owners to recognise the core difference. the turbine wheel is much much bigger than a standard ct9
The td12 uses the full tdo4 core and shaft wheel and a modiified/machined ct12 hot side. Hence the name td12
The latest versions also use a compressor snail from a tfo35 forester turbo, (in effect making it a td hybrid)
I don’t know any other hybrid for the starlet that is made in this way.
After his last frankinstein creation, Mr Tong pinpointed the ct9s core as the weak point on a higher boost application.
With the latest revision(3) of this externally gated turbo the td12 comes in three sizes of core dependant on what power/power delivery your after and what engine your using (4e or 5e) and is the default choice of turbo for a wepre power up kit and probably the ultimate hybrid for a starlet.
I can’t delve into boost thresholds or give cfm ratings as mr t keeps that private but the core sizes are.
Future evolutions could even use ball bearing cartridges
- 1: SW- TD04L , CW-13T ,With the lowest lag of this series. Currently no testers. This turbo is ideal a previous version made 215 @ 1.1 bar
- 2:SW-TD04H , CW-13T ,(H stands for hi capacity) Currently an ealier model of this turbo made 190bhp at .7bar - there are currently two testers with new compressor housings. With cams and 5e this turbo is good for 250bhp and great response.
- 3: SW- TD04HL , CW-15G the largest turbo. I have one of these that I’m building up on a 5e atm. I’m pretty sure this combo is a match made in heaven
On the standard ct9
Toyota knew what they were doing when they paired the ct9 with the 4efte. As discussed earlier in this thread full boost at 2500k is amazing for fast road car,
The only drawback is they can be breathless at higher rpms + creep issues
To people that say port your ct9, well you could do that but every turbo has a shelf life, some ct9s are 20 years old now. Tong Turbo sell ported ct9bs called the(rb spec) Considering Toyota charge over 880 for a ct9a, we charge close to a third of the price for a rebuilt 9 blade ct9b reconditioned and balanced with an enlarged waist gate + penny.
My recommendation to you Texx would be to either port your standard ct9b + port a standard manifold and turn the boost up to 1bar.
This is by far the cheapest option by a considerable amount compared to the other two basicaly costing fuck all, becuase of this it can’t be ignored.
If this does not satisfy your needs then start thinking about other turbos and how much power you exactly want.
Weather its chasing power(not in your case), or trying to find the best balance on road in a front wheel drive car to keep the work rate/lag down.
The latter is where a hybrid makes sense building up on what the standard ct9 has but also improving power right to the redline.
Brad has offered to give you a lift in his td12 at .8 the same pressure your running. I’m pretty sure that would give you an idea on weather the turbos for you or not.
ps. finx has done a minted thing by building a 5e engine around the ct9, im hoping to do the same.
:rockon: great info
Texx
Super Moderator
Thanks for your input Enzo. I'm still using the original and now 17 year old CT9a and to be fair although a little crusty it performs well for it's age. The wastegate has already been ported allowing a steady 0.8bar (if I'm honest though it's more like 0.75bar with a little boost creep to 0.8bar) and intend to get if not 'the' stock manifold, a stock manifold back on there ASAP before I end up killing myself from carbon monoxide poisoning.
My first plan of attack is to sort all of the exhaust leaks out before replacing the stock ECU with something standalone and then go from there. Once I've got a management system installed and set up, I'll be in a better position to decide what to do next.
That's very kind of you Brad, drop me a PM if your coming up this way and I'll see where I'm at.
Aidan@EP-styling
Trader
X2 Thats the best thing to do.
And if that power doesn't satisfy you further down the road then you can upgrade to a TD04 kit
gorganl2000
Lifer
MHI Turbine Wheels
Wheel Exducer (in.) Inducer (in.) Trim Notes
TD04 1.57 1.86 71 wheel height is less than the others
TD04L 1.62 1.86 76
TD04H 1.74 2.04 73
TD04HL 1.80 2.05 77
TE04H 1.88 2.01 87
TD05H 1.93 2.20 77
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm
taken from this site on various TD turbos (and others).
not sure if it related to some of the ct9 hybrid combinations...but none the less...its good info
i've also been following a lot of TD04l hybrid combinations on the subaru forums...trying different turbine wheels (stock L, clipped stock L, H, HL, etc.)and compressor wheels
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1623665
just some general info that people should consider
Wheel Exducer (in.) Inducer (in.) Trim Notes
TD04 1.57 1.86 71 wheel height is less than the others
TD04L 1.62 1.86 76
TD04H 1.74 2.04 73
TD04HL 1.80 2.05 77
TE04H 1.88 2.01 87
TD05H 1.93 2.20 77
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm
taken from this site on various TD turbos (and others).
not sure if it related to some of the ct9 hybrid combinations...but none the less...its good info
i've also been following a lot of TD04l hybrid combinations on the subaru forums...trying different turbine wheels (stock L, clipped stock L, H, HL, etc.)and compressor wheels
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1623665
just some general info that people should consider
sx_turbo
Lifer
i'm not to keen on td04 spools far to late for street imo, only seems to work well when constantly above 3.6k which isnt really very often most of the time.
when it does eventually come on boost it's great and the kick in power is impressive.
but for comparison, me and my friend who has a classic mini turbo with a garret t2 turbo@12psi, were having a play (on private roads), now i'm running 1.6bar on a supposed hybrid td04l turbo charger.
the mini is running 110@wheels
starlet is 240@wheels
because of the lack of responsiveness the mini walked all over the starlet,
round a race track the starlet would probably hold it's own,
i agree with enzo it's not all about all out power, thats ok for race tracks, but for road use people need to think more about responsiveness.
i've also owned a ct9 hybrid, and in all honestly prefered the get up and go of the ct9 to the tdo4,
when it does eventually come on boost it's great and the kick in power is impressive.
but for comparison, me and my friend who has a classic mini turbo with a garret t2 turbo@12psi, were having a play (on private roads), now i'm running 1.6bar on a supposed hybrid td04l turbo charger.
the mini is running 110@wheels
starlet is 240@wheels
because of the lack of responsiveness the mini walked all over the starlet,
round a race track the starlet would probably hold it's own,
i agree with enzo it's not all about all out power, thats ok for race tracks, but for road use people need to think more about responsiveness.
i've also owned a ct9 hybrid, and in all honestly prefered the get up and go of the ct9 to the tdo4,
sacodetoro
Lifer
Yes in gear responce of a ct9 will be better but if you drive your car properly when you have a td04 responce isn't an issue when you're going at it if you know how to keep the car in the power band....
sx_turbo
Lifer
yes, but very few corners require the use of 1st gear.
2nd gear is ok but still has the same inherent issue of lack of response as the rest of them or has massive traction issues, and motorway driving i find is a pain also,
the car cruises at 3.1/2k, and when going to over take things lack of response is bloody annoying then also.
it's not to bad in high boost, but low boost (1bar) is just shit.
2nd gear is ok but still has the same inherent issue of lack of response as the rest of them or has massive traction issues, and motorway driving i find is a pain also,
the car cruises at 3.1/2k, and when going to over take things lack of response is bloody annoying then also.
it's not to bad in high boost, but low boost (1bar) is just shit.