The Blitz K24 vs TD04 difference... coming soon ;)
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hardcoreep
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Maybe if its a 4E. There are Civics here running that on the street and traction isn't a problem. Its getting the drivetrain to withstand the power. A properly built 5E will handle 300+ fine. My friend has 298whp and his can run away from Evolutions with ease. Yes there is a limit to what can be put through the front wheels, but touring cars and F2 have long changed that illusion.
fastglanza
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Gee
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GTti
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Touring cars, F2 are N/A - it's totally different.
I'm going to explain in Jeremy Clarkson terminology.
Power delivery of a 3/400bhp Starlet: wait... wait... wait... wait... wait... BOOM! Oh dear I've just been dragged into a forest!
300bhp in a N/A: raaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHH
Take the Lotus Exige. It's designed for the track, peak power is 190bhp at 7800RPM, yes the VVTL-i kicks in at 6200RPM but the curve is gradual - this makes good delivery for the track.
They then released the Exige S, with a supercharger rather than a turbo charger. The reason they chose a supercharger is because it gives good gains across the range but doesn't change the characteristics of the standard 1.8 Toyota engine.
Driveability remains the same.
You only have to look at cars like the radical and all these hayabusa hybrids to realise this. Look at the way they deliver power.
I'm going to explain in Jeremy Clarkson terminology.
Power delivery of a 3/400bhp Starlet: wait... wait... wait... wait... wait... BOOM! Oh dear I've just been dragged into a forest!
300bhp in a N/A: raaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHH
Take the Lotus Exige. It's designed for the track, peak power is 190bhp at 7800RPM, yes the VVTL-i kicks in at 6200RPM but the curve is gradual - this makes good delivery for the track.
They then released the Exige S, with a supercharger rather than a turbo charger. The reason they chose a supercharger is because it gives good gains across the range but doesn't change the characteristics of the standard 1.8 Toyota engine.
Driveability remains the same.
You only have to look at cars like the radical and all these hayabusa hybrids to realise this. Look at the way they deliver power.
Gee
Member +
Exige is RWD so stop banging on about it, just because your saving up for one 
We were discussing FWD
Supercharger was a good choice thou with the Exige. Last thing you want in that car is wait...wait...wait...BANG...forest As it does everything so well.
Anyway...FWD..power and traction...where were we?
We were discussing FWD
Supercharger was a good choice thou with the Exige. Last thing you want in that car is wait...wait...wait...BANG...forest
As it does everything so well.Anyway...FWD..power and traction...where were we?
riko666
Member +
right, to clarify Nick's "220bhp" limit - this is the general rumoured Manufacturer standard for power produced on a STANDARD FWD series car - but that doesn't take into account a whole load of factors - most standard cars come with pretty mundane suspension settings, no LSD from Factory, an economical selection of tyre compound, no boost controllers, no electronic or mechanical trickery, so when in the context of a standard vehicle - yes, 220-230bhp is probably the sensible limit.
But how many standard cars have there been contrary to the above statement? Alfa Romeo did several 250bhp FWD cars (no LSD, or advanced suspension setups, just TC) though admittedly the power was far too much for the chassis, there's several cars in America (Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac Grand Am, Cadillac DTS, Chevrolet Impala SS, Buick Lacrosse but to name a very few) that use 300bhp + V8's on a FWD chassis - true, they're truly rubbish, but we're talking about lawsuit-crazy America. Toyota's New Camry and Avalon are both FWD and have a 272bhp V6 etc...Nowadays, with the advent of traction control technologies and curtailing power delivery via ECU Tuning has allowed manufacturers to sail by the "Recommended" figure.
And since when have FWD Race cars been limited to 220bhp? BTCC Cars run a limit of around 300bhp (can't remember the exact figure now), and bar the odd BMW or 2, they're all FWD cars...as are some ETCC cars (same sort of power figure). But they have a much bigger budget to spend on the race cars to cope with the sort of power at the front wheels - if Toyota wanted to make a 230bhp + Starlet GT, they could of, but could you imagine spending upwards of £30,000 (plucked out my ass, but sounds reasonable) on a hot hatch? Just cause it's had the necessary modifications applied to deal with the power? I doubt it - that's where the enthusiast comes in.
One key thing to remember is that all the power in the world, is only as good as the driver - some will have some natural skill, but in the end, unless you've had tuition, experience, race tuition/experience etc...I very much believe there is a whole lot more that could be deemed "usable", it's just down to what the individual is capable of, and not what they think they're capable of, as to be frank, a lot of people seem to think they're god's own gift to driving. And this is according to...who? You?
Wow, not straying from the subject are we?!
But how many standard cars have there been contrary to the above statement? Alfa Romeo did several 250bhp FWD cars (no LSD, or advanced suspension setups, just TC) though admittedly the power was far too much for the chassis, there's several cars in America (Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac Grand Am, Cadillac DTS, Chevrolet Impala SS, Buick Lacrosse but to name a very few) that use 300bhp + V8's on a FWD chassis - true, they're truly rubbish, but we're talking about lawsuit-crazy America. Toyota's New Camry and Avalon are both FWD and have a 272bhp V6 etc...Nowadays, with the advent of traction control technologies and curtailing power delivery via ECU Tuning has allowed manufacturers to sail by the "Recommended" figure.
And since when have FWD Race cars been limited to 220bhp? BTCC Cars run a limit of around 300bhp (can't remember the exact figure now), and bar the odd BMW or 2, they're all FWD cars...as are some ETCC cars (same sort of power figure). But they have a much bigger budget to spend on the race cars to cope with the sort of power at the front wheels - if Toyota wanted to make a 230bhp + Starlet GT, they could of, but could you imagine spending upwards of £30,000 (plucked out my ass, but sounds reasonable) on a hot hatch? Just cause it's had the necessary modifications applied to deal with the power? I doubt it - that's where the enthusiast comes in.
One key thing to remember is that all the power in the world, is only as good as the driver - some will have some natural skill, but in the end, unless you've had tuition, experience, race tuition/experience etc...I very much believe there is a whole lot more that could be deemed "usable", it's just down to what the individual is capable of, and not what they think they're capable of, as to be frank, a lot of people seem to think they're god's own gift to driving. And this is according to...who? You?
Wow, not straying from the subject are we?!
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hardcoreep
Member +
As someone who has dynoed a 2ZZ-GE, its not gradual. The car makes 20hp within 500rpms. Small displacement JDM engines are usually peaky, just like a turbocharger, only higher in the rev range.
gorganl2000
Lifer
correct hardcore.....with vtec, mivec and vvti....when they kick in, its far from gradual.......the engines even sound like they will fall apart from the high lift...lol
In think the point he was trying to get at is, everybody's setup is different and what you think is the 'limit' is only the limit of what you have. I thought my setup was the ducks nuts and im struggling to get traction on the street in 2nd with 250hp atw. I then went in a friends GTi with 290hp atw that has a decade of setup gone into it and was able to use all that power. Dont get me wrong, the torque steer is downright scary (multilane changes under acceleration) but its still useable. Its also a lot to do with throttle and clutch control. Slam your foot to the floor in a high power fwd and your going nowhere quick.
I really feel for the guys in the uk. In the wet the other night I was spinning though 4th. Must suck to have that weather most days
On the circuit the fwd guys usually detune to somewhere around 200-250hp at the wheels to help traction and hill climbs usually around 220hp atw. Theres a fwd crx here with a 2l NA with 170hp atw that is currently the fastest fwd around our circuit but it is setup and driven by a pro driver from japan.
Antispam: when can we expect to see results from the TD04 comparison?
GTti
Member +
It's not enough to enduce torque steer, or any real disruption to handling, look at the torque of the engine (Not a great deal), not just the power. At 6200RPM you are already doing a stubstancial speed, so it doesn't have the same effect. Not to mention that the max output is reached so far up the range at 7800RPM, so it is gradual as far as I'm concerned.
Watch the video of that HRF starlet, it's wheels are sqirming everywhere because the chasis can't handle the power or torque of the car. It's a pig, you can see the power kicks in, wheels squirming everywhere and then oh wait, ran out of gear already...
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hardcoreep
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I can't talk about the Elise, but in an Allex the transition is very sudden and does cause wheelspin, and torque steer.
Toby@ToyTuning.com
Banned - DO NOT BUY FROM TOYTUNING
What a load of rubbish Luke, there's no set limit. There are so many variables to take into account. The HRF car is certainly not useless around the track and yes it can be improved, the HRF car isn't really that extreme. We have taken there setup and improved on it, they didn't even run an adjustable panhard rod, no rear ARB, no anti lift kit, only a 7 point roll cage, glass windows the list is endless. It wasn't even desinged as an all out track car they just wacked it on Taskuba to see what it would do.
There setup is really not that mad, they just showed Cruise that there 400hp poorly setup Starlet was useless as the HRF car had around 100bhp less. We will see how "useless" a 300hp Starlet is next year at time attack don't you worry
T
There setup is really not that mad, they just showed Cruise that there 400hp poorly setup Starlet was useless as the HRF car had around 100bhp less. We will see how "useless" a 300hp Starlet is next year at time attack don't you worry
T
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Adam_Glanza
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owned.
Adam_Glanza
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nu-uh riko tryed and tested! its still just about holding
Toby@ToyTuning.com
Banned - DO NOT BUY FROM TOYTUNING
By the way I do love Luke and he knows it but you don't half come out with some crap sometimes. Next week Lotus's will be shit and you'll be back onto Charade's
riko666
Member +
Yuh-huh! I bet you've used superglue and that's cheating
Mind you, the Lotus range isn't bad, reverred more for handling than anything else (there's me stating the obvious) but I don't get the point of this non-TD04 vs. K24 related rant...are we trying to justify which has more potential for a higher power application, a Mid-engined car with huge development on suspension technology, and a front engined, front wheel drive car that's had 57p spent on MacPherson Struts and a Girder for the rear suspension?
Holy Crap, I couldn't see the outcome coming from that! There's no contest...but with money, anything is possible. What was the fastest FWD around Tsukuba? And how do it's times compare to other cars?
Mind you - at the Essen show some Tuning company demonstrated a Opel Speedster (Vauxhall VX220) with 650ps (640ish BHP) capable of 9.72s quarter miles. I sincerely doubt you'd get your stereotypical everyone-has-one Nissubisharu Skyimprevo to turn in such times if it were like for like powerwiseToby@ToyTuning.com
Banned - DO NOT BUY FROM TOYTUNING
Classic
Spot on, to say there indefinitely all crap (useless) is very how should I say, school boy!
T