advantages of the 5e over the 4e?
- Thread starter monka
- Start date
hardcoreep
Member +
1: Unless you're using methanol I don't see how you're going to make 400whp on a 4E. The most I've ever seen is 278whp and that was on C16.
2: Every 4E i've driven with a td04l or greater has lag. Boost doesn't kick in until about 3500-4000rpm. A gentleman here has a td05-16g on a 4E. It was a lagfest. You could walk past him. It just makes sense that the 4E doesn't have the volume to move a bigger turbocharger. That's what's compressor maps are for. I've also believed that the td04L is too big for the 4E. I normally recommend a 13g if the person can find one. Better response for slightly less peak power.
3:The HRF car was a 5E, and from the videos It didn't seem to suffer lag.
2: Every 4E i've driven with a td04l or greater has lag. Boost doesn't kick in until about 3500-4000rpm. A gentleman here has a td05-16g on a 4E. It was a lagfest. You could walk past him. It just makes sense that the 4E doesn't have the volume to move a bigger turbocharger. That's what's compressor maps are for. I've also believed that the td04L is too big for the 4E. I normally recommend a 13g if the person can find one. Better response for slightly less peak power.
3:The HRF car was a 5E, and from the videos It didn't seem to suffer lag.
Gee
Member +
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that larger turbines including the TD04L has lag. Its just not as bad as everyone makes out. 1bar by 3,500rpm is not a bad compromise for everything else that comes with upgrading. Its not as if it only start spooling at 3,500rpm.
I have lost some response low down, its inevitable. But it was a compromise for what I wanted to achieve. Something that I will be working on some more in the future. Maybe port/polishing and maybe a hybrid TD04 with ball bearing.
I definately would not go TD05 on a 4E just because it would be lag fest like you have said.
If you want to keep the characteristics of the stock setup, then a hybrid may be a better choice, but it all depends on what we want personally from our cars.
Oh BTW, we were talking about 400hp at the flywheel not WHP.
I have lost some response low down, its inevitable. But it was a compromise for what I wanted to achieve. Something that I will be working on some more in the future. Maybe port/polishing and maybe a hybrid TD04 with ball bearing.
I definately would not go TD05 on a 4E just because it would be lag fest like you have said.
If you want to keep the characteristics of the stock setup, then a hybrid may be a better choice, but it all depends on what we want personally from our cars.
Oh BTW, we were talking about 400hp at the flywheel not WHP.
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G
gaz_turbo1
Guest
right here's dan 4E graph made 294bhp at 5.3k and 300lbft at 5k
and here's aze 5E graph made 298 at 5.9k and 286 at 5.1k
now look back at the both graph's and look at what whp and torque they are both making at 6k
dans making a tad over 200 whp and 230lbft
aze is making 240whp and 260lbft
and people can go on bout how it drives on the road but this is what the computer is telling us what exactly is happening
and here's aze 5E graph made 298 at 5.9k and 286 at 5.1k
now look back at the both graph's and look at what whp and torque they are both making at 6k
dans making a tad over 200 whp and 230lbft
aze is making 240whp and 260lbft
and people can go on bout how it drives on the road but this is what the computer is telling us what exactly is happening
G
gaz_turbo1
Guest
dan car also has a ported polished head and fancy valve's i think, dont no why dans just dies after 5k, weird, but after driving aze car the other night made me want to get shot of the 4wd and go fwd big power,
hardcoreep
Member +
Is that WHEEL HORSEPOWER, because european dyno like to quote that
dantheman
Member +
looking at the graphs it would seem the torque is the same, both peaking at 5.2k then dropping. and the 5e holds the power another 500rpm longer than the 4e has. BUT thats just going by abit of paper which to be honest needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. a better way to compare would be on 1/4mile. but i will say on the road it doesnt stop pulling a keeps tugging hard right round to the rev limiter in every gear
Adam_Glanza
Member +
gee your car has a very nice curve there!
to be honest dan it probably doesnt feel like the power is tailing off because of momentum etc, your not gonna be slowing down, just not accelerating as hard as it would be lower down in the revs.
i agree they would both need to be dyno'd at the same place to get a real accurate comparison, but you get the point from that
to be honest dan it probably doesnt feel like the power is tailing off because of momentum etc, your not gonna be slowing down, just not accelerating as hard as it would be lower down in the revs.
i agree they would both need to be dyno'd at the same place to get a real accurate comparison, but you get the point from that
StarletRick
Fresh Recruit
they are both dyno'd at the same place. at EA.
and that 4e graph looks like there has been a boost fluctiation, is that setup running an internal wastegate? you dont usually see more power being made after the peak in power unless youve got some mental cams that come in at 6k, or there was a spike in the boost causing that ridge on the dyno graph.
at the end of the day, its about 150cc difference, and that isnt going to make big differences in power, the only real difference is that bit of extra torque from the 5e due to stroke. you also have the little annoying problems with the 5e, not to mention the higher compression which requires a big headgasket to pull back down. a 5e will never be as reliable as a 4e due to these.
and you can iron out the dip in power on either engines, that more to do with gas flow than anything. a good port job on the head and some decent cams fix that. mine makes 287.9hp at about 5500rpm and is still making about 285hp at 8krpm. that may change when i up the boost, i expect it to drop off slightly more as the cams start to lose pace, as its still only running 1.2bar at the moment and has more to go.
and that 4e graph looks like there has been a boost fluctiation, is that setup running an internal wastegate? you dont usually see more power being made after the peak in power unless youve got some mental cams that come in at 6k, or there was a spike in the boost causing that ridge on the dyno graph.
at the end of the day, its about 150cc difference, and that isnt going to make big differences in power, the only real difference is that bit of extra torque from the 5e due to stroke. you also have the little annoying problems with the 5e, not to mention the higher compression which requires a big headgasket to pull back down. a 5e will never be as reliable as a 4e due to these.
and you can iron out the dip in power on either engines, that more to do with gas flow than anything. a good port job on the head and some decent cams fix that. mine makes 287.9hp at about 5500rpm and is still making about 285hp at 8krpm. that may change when i up the boost, i expect it to drop off slightly more as the cams start to lose pace, as its still only running 1.2bar at the moment and has more to go.
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Adam_Glanza
Member +
yeah, but when looking at gee's car the power doesnt tail off at all?
ok the torque dips but the hp stays high, when the other too are dropping off.
thats without any headwork at all?
ok the torque dips but the hp stays high, when the other too are dropping off.
thats without any headwork at all?
Starlet_Sam
Moderator, Regional Area Reps Supervisor & Gay Car
The scale of Gee's graph is massive, makes it all look smoother. It is smooth but it would appear to drop off a lot more if it was a 300bhp scale like the others.
StarletRick
Fresh Recruit
i was referring to the 4e/5e comparison graphs mate, it tails off almost 20hp in about 600rpm, and it will keep dipping at that rate to the redline.
gee's graph is lovely though, turbo is well matched to the engine and the power delivery is smooth. but, it only shows up to 6500 rpm. if that graph went to 8k, it would tail off.
the point i was making is that with some good headwork both the engines can hold an maintain a high horsepower throughout the revs (less than a 5hp drop from 5500 through 8000, for example). what im trying to get at, is that the engines are very similar, and the power output and delivery are more dependant on the way the engine has been put together, rather than the extra displacement of the 5e. that extra 150cc helps, but it isnt a defining factor in power. there are plenty of 300hp+ 4Es to prove that.
gee's graph is lovely though, turbo is well matched to the engine and the power delivery is smooth. but, it only shows up to 6500 rpm. if that graph went to 8k, it would tail off.
the point i was making is that with some good headwork both the engines can hold an maintain a high horsepower throughout the revs (less than a 5hp drop from 5500 through 8000, for example). what im trying to get at, is that the engines are very similar, and the power output and delivery are more dependant on the way the engine has been put together, rather than the extra displacement of the 5e. that extra 150cc helps, but it isnt a defining factor in power. there are plenty of 300hp+ 4Es to prove that.
sx_turbo
Lifer
nice info there rick, good to see you back on here.
although if someone were to forge a 5e, are you saying that it wouldnt be as reliable as a forged 4e?
i only ask out of interest
StarletRick
Fresh Recruit
the main concern with them is the compression. due to the longer stroke, high compression is inevitable (the fhe runs at 9.8:1 for example) and to compensate you will have to run low comp pistons and have a bigger than your average head gasket.
and running a 2.6mm head gasket is obviously not going to be as reliable as a 1.2mm or something youd run on the 4e for similar comrpession results.
youve also got the bearing load on the big ends. the larger rotational diameter and extra weight on the 5e crank puts alot more pressure on those bearings at high rpm than a 4e. so they wont last as long either.
there are other smaller niggley problems, but it comes with the territory. squeezing big power out of a 15 year old 1.5 litre engine is always gonig to break something.
and there are plenty of people running standalones. doesnt have to be a motec...
and running a 2.6mm head gasket is obviously not going to be as reliable as a 1.2mm or something youd run on the 4e for similar comrpession results.
youve also got the bearing load on the big ends. the larger rotational diameter and extra weight on the 5e crank puts alot more pressure on those bearings at high rpm than a 4e. so they wont last as long either.
there are other smaller niggley problems, but it comes with the territory. squeezing big power out of a 15 year old 1.5 litre engine is always gonig to break something.
and there are plenty of people running standalones. doesnt have to be a motec...
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that are some of the main reasons why my engine builder adjusted the compression and a bracket around the main bearings.
Gee
Member +
I was round at my tuners the other day..dropped off my box to be rebuilt and TRD LSD
Should of asked for my graph in a more detailed print etc, but they were busy with an Evo X..the ECU had locked them out!
Some head work is on the cards in the distant future and maybe a hybrid TD04L.
Some good info in this thread. There is no denying the 5E generates more power and torque, but it may not be worth the additional wear and fiddly bits getting the blocks to mate for some people?
Rick,
Are you 5E yeah?
**EDIT**
Here is my other graph before the fine tune. Unfortunately the FMIC pipe blew off, so that is what caused the drop before people start to comment
Power does not to seem to be starting to drop off too dramatically to be honest. I use the GReddy PROfec II by the way..which does seem to help with maintaining boost levels. A good BC should not be ruled out too.
Should of asked for my graph in a more detailed print etc, but they were busy with an Evo X..the ECU had locked them out!
Some head work is on the cards in the distant future and maybe a hybrid TD04L.
Some good info in this thread. There is no denying the 5E generates more power and torque, but it may not be worth the additional wear and fiddly bits getting the blocks to mate for some people?
Rick,
Are you 5E yeah?
**EDIT**
Here is my other graph before the fine tune. Unfortunately the FMIC pipe blew off, so that is what caused the drop before people start to comment
Power does not to seem to be starting to drop off too dramatically to be honest. I use the GReddy PROfec II by the way..which does seem to help with maintaining boost levels. A good BC should not be ruled out too.
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