4EFE vs 4EFTE engine block differences for forged engine build.

[Jay]

Sorry Frankie, I've been out of action for the last few weeks, this is the first I've been able to even sit at my computer half-comfortably.

Match the oil pick up with the sump and you should be fine.

I generally don't do electrics and haven't access to my manuals currently so I'll let someone with actual experience of the wiring advise.

Cheers,

Jay

 

[Djaniero]

@Frankieflowers @Jay Great/informative read here.
Can I ask you both for further info on the dizzy issues with using a Corolla 4efe block to replace a 4efte block? I have access to a Corolla 4efe block that I would like to forge as a spare engine.
Thanks

 

[Frankieflowers]

@Frankieflowers @Jay Great/informative read here.
Can I ask you both for further info on the dizzy issues with using a Corolla 4efe block to replace a 4efte block? I have access to a Corolla 4efe block that I would like to forge as a spare engine.
Thanks

Hello. Sorry for the late reply.
I am in the process of gathering all the parts I need to forge a 4efe 2998 Corolla E11 with coil pack and convert it in a 4efte.

The engine block and the head are the same because the fte was developed on the 4efe.

i bought fte camshafts from Japan and compared them with the fe from my engine. Intake has a different code which means measure on the lobe is different. The exhaust camshaft is the same.
Valves are the same. Springs are different. Cam pully is the same. Crank pulley is lighter on the 4efte. Service belts are larger on the 4efe.
There’s a plastic cap closing the distributer exit on the head that you just pup out and you’re ready to use the 4e head for the fte project.
Pistons and rods are different. Crankshaft is the same. You’ll need the thermostat cover off a fte to have the water exits for the turbo. Obviously the intake is different. We are just talking about the engine block. About the oil sump you can swap it with a fte sump or get a hole in the same position that is actually marked and use a 3/4 stainless steel nipple. You’ll need the correct flat nut for the back.

The knock sensor should be in the same position. I still haven’t compared the blocks but the info I have is e enough to be confident there will be no holes to drill.
The head rocker is different. You’ll need to use a fte one or just weld 2 AN10 aluminium nipples on it for oil breathing purposes that will have to be connected to a oil canister.



The rest is about choosing pistons, con rods and obviously ARP head studs and crank studs, ACL bearings and a good head gasket. If you go forged you’ll have to trim the block to get the rods move safe, shim the area where the M10 head nuts sit and get the head bolt holes larger to 10.5 mm and the engine block rectified for the M10 studs. Some people cut the studs shorter to make sure they’ll pull a 100%. I’ll see about that.

this is basically it. It took me months to get this information, and I am happy to share it with the community.

 

[gorganl2000]

If you go forged you’ll have to trim the block to get the rods move safe, shim the area where the M10 head nuts sit and get the head bolt holes larger to 10.5 mm and the engine block rectified for the M10 studs. Some people cut the studs shorter to make sure they’ll pull a 100%. I’ll see about that.

this is basically it. It took me months to get this information, and I am happy to share it with the community.

just to clarify for other members/readers.... ARP/OEM head bolts versus ARP head studs....there are times were people use them interchangeably, but they are quite different... ARP head bolts are a direct fit on the 4e/5e head, while ARP head studs require the custom work

 

[Frankieflowers]

just to clarify for other members/readers.... ARP/OEM head bolts versus ARP head studs....there are times were people use them interchangeably, but they are quite different... ARP head bolts are a direct fit on the 4e/5e head, while ARP head studs require the custom work

Exactly. If you don’t want to modify the head and block you can simply use ARP head bolts. If you are aiming +250 hp then you shall go with the studs.

 

[Djaniero]

Hello. Sorry for the late reply.
I am in the process of gathering all the parts I need to forge a 4efe 2998 Corolla E11 with coil pack and convert it in a 4efte.

The engine block and the head are the same because the fte was developed on the 4efe.

i bought fte camshafts from Japan and compared them with the fe from my engine. Intake has a different code which means measure on the lobe is different. The exhaust camshaft is the same.
Valves are the same. Springs are different. Cam pully is the same. Crank pulley is lighter on the 4efte. Service belts are larger on the 4efe.
There’s a plastic cap closing the distributer exit on the head that you just pup out and you’re ready to use the 4e head for the fte project.
Pistons and rods are different. Crankshaft is the same. You’ll need the thermostat cover off a fte to have the water exits for the turbo. Obviously the intake is different. We are just talking about the engine block. About the oil sump you can swap it with a fte sump or get a hole in the same position that is actually marked and use a 3/4 stainless steel nipple. You’ll need the correct flat nut for the back.
View attachment 10609
The knock sensor should be in the same position. I still haven’t compared the blocks but the info I have is e enough to be confident there will be no holes to drill.
The head rocker is different. You’ll need to use a fte one or just weld 2 AN10 aluminium nipples on it for oil breathing purposes that will have to be connected to a oil canister.

View attachment 10611

The rest is about choosing pistons, con rods and obviously ARP head studs and crank studs, ACL bearings and a good head gasket. If you go forged you’ll have to trim the block to get the rods move safe, shim the area where the M10 head nuts sit and get the head bolt holes larger to 10.5 mm and the engine block rectified for the M10 studs. Some people cut the studs shorter to make sure they’ll pull a 100%. I’ll see about that.

this is basically it. It took me months to get this information, and I am happy to share it with the community.

Thanks a lot for taking the time out to explain this Frankie.
I am planning to do a similar build and use my 4efte head and forge an E11 block.

Just to clarity:
1. I can use the 4efte oil pump on the 4e block?
2. Does the block have to be notched if you use the max speeding rods?
3. What mods have to be done to use the head studs? I am aiming for max 300bhp.

Thanks

 

[Djaniero]

just to clarify for other members/readers.... ARP/OEM head bolts versus ARP head studs....there are times were people use them interchangeably, but they are quite different... ARP head bolts are a direct fit on the 4e/5e head, while ARP head studs require the custom work

Hail @gorganl2000 ,
Can I ask what mods need to be done to use the arp studs? Only reason I ask is that I have seen a few UK guys use the bolts and studs with standard 4eftes over here?

Thanks

 

[daniel_g]

With the oil pump, there are two different types, oil seal on block and oil seal on pump. You'll have to check your block and order accordingly.

My last maxspeeding rods did not require the block to be notched. Maybe the earlier ones did. Its a very basic task to do anyway.

Lastly to fit ARP head studs, your machinist will have to re drill the threads to M10. The cylinder head will have to be re cut to allow the studs to pass through. Material will have to be removed to allow space for the hex nut (and socket) to be torqued down.

I've heard of some people cutting studs or flipping them upside down.

My block was just drilled and the studs unaltered.

 

[Djaniero]

With the oil pump, there are two different types, oil seal on block and oil seal on pump. You'll have to check your block and order accordingly.

My last maxspeeding rods did not require the block to be notched. Maybe the earlier ones did. Its a very basic task to do anyway.

Lastly to fit ARP head studs, your machinist will have to re drill the threads to M10. The cylinder head will have to be re cut to allow the studs to pass through. Material will have to be removed to allow space for the hex nut (and socket) to be torqued down.

I've heard of some people cutting studs or flipping them upside down.

My block was just drilled and the studs unaltered.

Thanks for this @daniel_g. I'm still in two minds whether to just forge the 4efe and add the relevant mods to suit or forge the 4efe bottom end and use my 4EFTE head as it was fully rebuilt around 9k miles ago.

I was going to have the engine built/notched by a builder however I have always wanted to build an engine myself (I have only ever rebuilt 2 Stroke engines in the past, but do all of the rest of the work myself on my GT, as reliable garages are hard to come by these days).

Are the studs needed for 280-300bhp, or would you just recommend the arp bolts?

 

[Frankieflowers]

Just to clarity:
1. I can use the 4efte oil pump on the 4e block?
2. Does the block have to be notched if you use the max speeding rods?
3. What mods have to be done to use the head studs? I am aiming for max 300bhp.

You are welcome. We can help each other make this job perfect.
Answers:
YES
YES
The studs are M10 which means thicker compared to the OEM bolts. Machinery will be needed to make the holes larger in order to fit the studs. At the same time the pass through holes in the head will have to be enlarged at 10.5 mm to allow enough space for the studs.
The head will have to be machined in certain areas where the bolts sit I think it is worth it because the studs will do a better job if you go with higher boosts. I think it’s a good way to forge an engine and stop thinking about what could happen later on.
another important thing I would do is buy uprated 4efte valve springs.

at one point, I said, why should I spend all this money when I could just put some forged rods and springs. We don’t want to build a drag race car. If you think that I am running 206 hp on a 1997 Glanza V ep91 4efte with 120k Km ish with amazing results I don’t see the reason why I should spend so much money to forge the complete engine. But as we know when we start, we don’t see the end of the progress and excitement we put in this passion.
Forged con rods, ARP head-bolt set, ACL bearings and Cometic head gasket would be enough to get the engine strong and safe. I don’t even see necessary changing the pistons, for instance. But again, if you start with one element, then all the others must go along. What could the experts say about it?

 

[Frankieflowers]

With the oil pump, there are two different types, oil seal on block and oil seal on pump. You'll have to check your block and order accordingly.

My last maxspeeding rods did not require the block to be notched. Maybe the earlier ones did. Its a very basic task to do anyway.

Lastly to fit ARP head studs, your machinist will have to re drill the threads to M10. The cylinder head will have to be re cut to allow the studs to pass through. Material will have to be removed to allow space for the hex nut (and socket) to be torqued down.

I've heard of some people cutting studs or flipping them upside down.

My block was just drilled and the studs unaltered.

Great info. I bought Maxspeedingrods this year so maybe they will move smoothly in the block.
@Djaniero you will have to buy a OEM 4efte oil and water pump that will fit the 4e block.

 

[Frankieflowers]

Are the studs needed for 280-300bhp, or would you just recommend the arp bolts?

Pardon me for answering this one, but we are talking about a turbo charged engine. The mechanics have a limit and in order to keep the engine safe we have to balance the pressure and keep the head tight in every area on the block. This is why head studs. are fundamental. If you pass 250 hp. You are going in a risky area considering that the engine was modified from an aspirated to a turbo charged version going from 86 to 135 hp. The block is very strong compared to other brands, but we have to keep in mind that we are gaining almost 3 times with pressure and stress.
The crankshaft is strong enough but think of his job as well together with the Valve cups. The valve cups have the shims. That can easily pop out when you go on higher pressures and RPM. So again, if you consider every element and every risk, you will have to work on every corner of the engine, but my personal opinion is that we want to get the weak spots stronger and do a perfect build.
my machine shop doesn’t make me feel so comfortable, but speaking to others, they all react the same way to certain requests.
I believe that thinking about having to engines, make us feel safer and go hard!
Let me know what you think.

 

[daniel_g]

Thanks for this @daniel_g. I'm still in two minds whether to just forge the 4efe and add the relevant mods to suit or forge the 4efe bottom end and use my 4EFTE head as it was fully rebuilt around 9k miles ago.

I was going to have the engine built/notched by a builder however I have always wanted to build an engine myself (I have only ever rebuilt 2 Stroke engines in the past, but do all of the rest of the work myself on my GT, as reliable garages are hard to come by these days).

Are the studs needed for 280-300bhp, or would you just recommend the arp bolts?

Assembling the engine yourself is always an option if you want to. I just did a refresh on my 4efe last week. I normally do diesels.

The ARP studs are not required for 300bhp. Although it is actually less expensive to buy the studs over the bolts. Also I would advise that the ARP headbolts can snap when torquing as the final sequence is to 60f/lbs, I've done this twice now. The threads of the block were chased and cleaned with the M9 tap, and the correct grease applied.

The studs are only wound in hand tight then the nut is torqued. Can be reused many times. Its just a better setup.

 

[Frankieflowers]

Assembling the engine yourself is always an option if you want to. I just did a refresh on my 4efe last week. I normally do diesels.

The ARP studs are not required for 300bhp. Although it is actually less expensive to buy the studs over the bolts. Also I would advise that the ARP headbolts can snap when torquing as the final sequence is to 60f/lbs, I've done this twice now. The threads of the block were chased and cleaned with the M9 tap, and the correct grease applied.

The studs are only wound in hand tight then the nut is torqued. Can be reused many times. Its just a better setup.

Talkimg aboit the differences between the two engin blocks, I still haven’t confirmed if the oil strainer is the same. The 4efe should have a rectangular shape pick up grill and the fte should have it circular. If this is true, probably the turbo engine version has a larger surface to be able to pick up more oil per second.
Another question. Have you seen the 4efe and fte blocks close to each other to compare knock sensor position on the blocks?

Thank you in advance.

 

[daniel_g]

I'll check my 4efe oil strainer, not sure exactly what shape it is.

As for the knock sensor, it is exactly the same place on all the 4e and fte blocks I have seen. I'll add a picture on Monday.

I've had two 4e n/a engines that had knock sensors from standard. Others just have the thread.

Its part of the casting.

 

[Djaniero]

You are welcome. We can help each other make this job perfect.
Answers:
YES
YES
The studs are M10 which means thicker compared to the OEM bolts. Machinery will be needed to make the holes larger in order to fit the studs. At the same time the pass through holes in the head will have to be enlarged at 10.5 mm to allow enough space for the studs.
The head will have to be machined in certain areas where the bolts sit I think it is worth it because the studs will do a better job if you go with higher boosts. I think it’s a good way to forge an engine and stop thinking about what could happen later on.
another important thing I would do is buy uprated 4efte valve springs.

at one point, I said, why should I spend all this money when I could just put some forged rods and springs. We don’t want to build a drag race car. If you think that I am running 206 hp on a 1997 Glanza V ep91 4efte with 120k Km ish with amazing results I don’t see the reason why I should spend so much money to forge the complete engine. But as we know when we start, we don’t see the end of the progress and excitement we put in this passion.
Forged con rods, ARP head-bolt set, ACL bearings and Cometic head gasket would be enough to get the engine strong and safe. I don’t even see necessary changing the pistons, for instance. But again, if you start with one element, then all the others must go along. What could the experts say about it?

Do some of the head studs have to be cut down to clear the cam gear also?

lol I agree. We often do no see the end of the progress and excitement we put into these projects as they are never finished. There is always something to do next.
However as much as I love the idea of forging I often wonder how far I could safely push my stock 4efte. I know the Jamaican and other overseas members have got some crazy figures over the years i.w. 250bhp plus on standard internals. This is one of the only ones I know of over here in the UK which made 270bhp on stock internals with ARP Head bolts.

https://www.ukstarletowners.com/topic/94725-socks-746-track-gt-turbo/page/5/

 

[Djaniero]

Forgot add guys. In regard to the oil feed. Can I use the 4EFTE oil filter housing or would it be best to use something like this: Search this on Youtube as the channel will not allow me to link the video.

What my 4efe engine needs before turbo install | Toyota Starlet 4efe turbo build.​

 

[Frankieflowers]

Others just have the thread.

Thank you for that. I just didn’t have a chance to check on the fte block. I am pretty sure the block is the same but for example, I noticed that.the 4e doesn’t have the oil pressure sensor in the same position. Or it is just a different type of connector on the sensor. I learned that until I don’t see with my eyes, the part and the replacement for example, I am never 100% sure. I have to say I was very lucky and probably organized when I planned the engine swap back in the days.

Please let me know about the oil strainer. It is not a big deal because I can swap them but I am curious to know why there have two different shapes.

 

[Frankieflowers]

Forgot add guys. In regard to the oil feed. Can I use the 4EFTE oil filter housing or would it be best to use something like this: Search this on Youtube as the channel will not allow me to link the video.

What my 4efe engine needs before turbo install | Toyota Starlet 4efe turbo build.​

The oil cooling system is another long discussion. I would simply say that if you don’t use the car for track or rally you don’t need an oil cooler. Which means that you can leave the oil filter in the relocation position with the FTE bracket just use MOYUL competition oil and change it every 10k Kms.
FYI I am running 206 hp at 1.1 bar on a modified ct9 turbo.charger with standard internals. The engine has at least 110k Km.

 

[daniel_g]

Forgot add guys. In regard to the oil feed. Can I use the 4EFTE oil filter housing or would it be best to use something like this: Search this on Youtube as the channel will not allow me to link the video.

The easiest way to do the oil feed is by using the FTE oil filter housing. Some exhaust manifolds won't actually fit unless the oil filter is in this position, as opposed to directly on the block the N/a way, so something to watch out for.

Again regarding the ARP studs, mine were not cut. My machinist must have just drilled down further.

I've seen that video before - that is a good channel to watch for information.